i don't really care about what happens in a foreign country under their laws, i live in canada, and it's the canadian system that i'd like to see re-adopt the death penalty
This is why I'm against the Death Penalty
- Thread starter sdw
- Start date
Most cops are honest, however there are some who do plant evidence. Of course racial profiling also never happens right?
Like Homer said, the penalty for murder varies from state to state and also the colour of your skin.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...cers_thwart_justice_with_false_testimony.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...olice-face-assault-mischief-charges-1.2545830
No, it's just that people remember the OJ Simpson case and the way Mark Fuhrman "created" evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman
I think that a lot of people that watched the trial, thought that Mark Fuhrman denied Marcia Clark the possibility of proving her case because Mark Fuhrman had used portions of the blood samples supplied by OJ Simpson to coat the glove, sock and Bronco door with blood. The defense was able to prove that that blood had preservative in it, which established that it was planted by Mark Fuhrman.
Marcia Clark was prosecuting the right person, there just wasn't any way that a jury could find OJ Simpson guilty when there was no knowing just how much evidence had been tampered with.
as i said earlier in this thread, i'm unswayed by examples from the u.s. they are a foreign country as far as i'm concerned, and they certainly are not a just society. i'm talking about canada
i guess it's the preponderance of u.s. television that makes canadians think that 'we' did all these things that actually happened in the u.s., a foreign country
either that or as a nation we are so shamed and guilt-ridden that you think you have to share the u.s. guilt as well as our own for injustices committed
i for one believe that canada has a legal system that could administer capital punishment in a fair manner - and should
anyway, i don't believe the cons have the balls to pass the legislation, and certainly the socialists won't, so i know i'll die without ever seeing capital punishment return to canada
i guess it's the preponderance of u.s. television that makes canadians think that 'we' did all these things that actually happened in the u.s., a foreign country
either that or as a nation we are so shamed and guilt-ridden that you think you have to share the u.s. guilt as well as our own for injustices committed
i for one believe that canada has a legal system that could administer capital punishment in a fair manner - and should
anyway, i don't believe the cons have the balls to pass the legislation, and certainly the socialists won't, so i know i'll die without ever seeing capital punishment return to canada
VCC - here you go
http://michael.steeleworthy.ca/2009/08/10/canadian-aboriginal-incarceration-rates/
You wrote - "as i said earlier in this thread, i'm unswayed by examples from the u.s. they are a foreign country as far as i'm concerned, and they certainly are not a just society. i'm talking about canada"
Justice is blind - hmmm, does that mean those who administer justice are blind to their on blindness? The stats are there and yet instead of getting better things are getting worse. I'm talking about Canada.
Peace
http://michael.steeleworthy.ca/2009/08/10/canadian-aboriginal-incarceration-rates/
You wrote - "as i said earlier in this thread, i'm unswayed by examples from the u.s. they are a foreign country as far as i'm concerned, and they certainly are not a just society. i'm talking about canada"
Justice is blind - hmmm, does that mean those who administer justice are blind to their on blindness? The stats are there and yet instead of getting better things are getting worse. I'm talking about Canada.
PeaceI have no problem philosophically with the death penalty, and used to support it, however, I am now against it for a few reasons.
First, it is obviously not a deterrent to criminals. Have you ever heard of a criminal who plans a crime and thinks they're going to get caught? Of course not. With the exception of treason, capital punishment only came into play for premeditated murder or murder committed during the commission of another (planned) crime, e.g. killing a cop during a robbery.
Second, there is the possibility of wrongful conviction - nothing more need be said.
Third, I wish I could find the source, but I recall reading years ago that, prior to the abolition of the death penalty in Canada, only one-third of those originally charged with capital murder were actually convicted of it. The other two-thirds were either acquitted or convicted of lesser offences due to plea bargains or juries choosing such an option. And, of those convicted of capital murder, only one-third were actually executed. This group consisted predominantly of visible and linguistic minorities. White, Canadian-born murderers were far less likely to be hanged than immigrants or non-whites.
Fourth, juries are loath to convict people of capital crimes without proof beyond all doubt, rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Such absolute proof is quite rare. Following the abolition of the death penalty, the conviction rate of those charged with first degree murder rose from one-third to three-quarters.
However, I believe that a life sentence should be just that - no parole EVER. And. I wouldn't take any means at all to prevent suicide by convicted murderers. The only exception would be the Olsons, Bernardos, etc. I would wait a few years to eliminate the possibility of a wrongful conviction, and then start a regime of systematic torture of the bastards, while the others watched.
On a somewhat related matter, I have never understood why there has always been a distinction between first and second degree murder. I fail to see why someone who kills on the spur of the moment in a fit of rage is less of a criminal than someone who commits a planned murder or a murder during another planned crime. In fact, if protection of society is a factor, someone who plans a murder often has a damn good reason for killing the victim and is unlikely to ever kill again. However, someone who has a deadly, violent temper will always be dangerous.
First, it is obviously not a deterrent to criminals. Have you ever heard of a criminal who plans a crime and thinks they're going to get caught? Of course not. With the exception of treason, capital punishment only came into play for premeditated murder or murder committed during the commission of another (planned) crime, e.g. killing a cop during a robbery.
Second, there is the possibility of wrongful conviction - nothing more need be said.
Third, I wish I could find the source, but I recall reading years ago that, prior to the abolition of the death penalty in Canada, only one-third of those originally charged with capital murder were actually convicted of it. The other two-thirds were either acquitted or convicted of lesser offences due to plea bargains or juries choosing such an option. And, of those convicted of capital murder, only one-third were actually executed. This group consisted predominantly of visible and linguistic minorities. White, Canadian-born murderers were far less likely to be hanged than immigrants or non-whites.
Fourth, juries are loath to convict people of capital crimes without proof beyond all doubt, rather than beyond a reasonable doubt. Such absolute proof is quite rare. Following the abolition of the death penalty, the conviction rate of those charged with first degree murder rose from one-third to three-quarters.
However, I believe that a life sentence should be just that - no parole EVER. And. I wouldn't take any means at all to prevent suicide by convicted murderers. The only exception would be the Olsons, Bernardos, etc. I would wait a few years to eliminate the possibility of a wrongful conviction, and then start a regime of systematic torture of the bastards, while the others watched.
On a somewhat related matter, I have never understood why there has always been a distinction between first and second degree murder. I fail to see why someone who kills on the spur of the moment in a fit of rage is less of a criminal than someone who commits a planned murder or a murder during another planned crime. In fact, if protection of society is a factor, someone who plans a murder often has a damn good reason for killing the victim and is unlikely to ever kill again. However, someone who has a deadly, violent temper will always be dangerous.
Perhaps, but has there ever been a case where a convicted murderer has committed suicide in prison and later been exonerated?
I just threw that in. knowing it could never happen in our "civilized" society.
We can argue this more when I repeat with you in Winnipeg (fairly soon, I hope). But, only off the clock!
ound:
I am unsure what torturing a prisoner would actually do to bring back anyone's family member who was murdered???
FFS, even the CIA acknowledged that water boarding KSM 183 times did not benefit their investigation one bit.
Torturing people may have had its day in medieval times but as a so called sophisticated society I for one would be dead set against any such behaviour.
Give the Law Enforcement the ability to torture someone and they will use those tools to the Nth Degree. Look at the use of Tasers!! When they became one of the tools LEO could use they ran amok with it and ended up killing people through its use.
Torture would be a very slippery slope in my estimation.
There is no way of knowing how many innocent people have been executed....those who battle against the death penalty tend to move on after an execution to those cases where they may still do some good, rather than spend their time and resources on a dead man. A quick google for "wrongful execution" gives a number of examples, and more than 100 wrongfully convicted have been exonerated in the US from death row. And the examples in Canada quoted at the beginning of this post also shows it happens here -- if we had the death penalty, they would be dead too.
In ALL cases of a murder conviction, the evidence at trial was obviously considered irrefutable -- sentencing someone to life in prison isn't exactly a casual act. "He might be innocent, but we'll convict him just the same."
Your logic of "Hey this guy must have done it, he's not a good guy..." is exactly what leads to prosecutors and cops planting evidence and ignoring other evidence that doesn't support their case (aside from the career benefits of successful prosecutions). It also leads to actual murderers not being caught when the case is "closed."
Anybody that thinks our justice system is perfect is dreaming.
Do a little research about why the state of Illinois is no longer a death penalty state; the (now disgraced) governor put a moratorium in place in when it came to light that Cook County (that's Chicago) had been tampering with , tainting and manipulating evidence for a DECADE or more.
Dude, abide this. You wrote
How does supporting the death penalty automatically mean I also support killing innocent people? In the case you cited, the guy was ultimately found to be innocent (or at least innocent of this crime, there must be some reason the police were interested in this guy from the beginning) so it cannot be a soundboard to argue against killing innocent people. How many truly innocent people have been executed for crimes they did not commit?
"there must be some reason the police were interested in this guy from the beginning"
you (presumably because you are on this board) frequent prostitutes
Pickton frequented prostitutes
police therefore have reason to be interested in both you and Pickton . . . .
I like what someone else wrote earlier about 1st and 2nd degree murder - that a person with a temper tantrum issue just might be societally more dangerous than the thoughtful premeditated person. But then again, maybe not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)
How does supporting the death penalty automatically mean I also support killing innocent people? In the case you cited, the guy was ultimately found to be innocent (or at least innocent of this crime, there must be some reason the police were interested in this guy from the beginning) so it cannot be a soundboard to argue against killing innocent people. How many truly innocent people have been executed for crimes they did not commit?
"there must be some reason the police were interested in this guy from the beginning"
you (presumably because you are on this board) frequent prostitutes
Pickton frequented prostitutes
police therefore have reason to be interested in both you and Pickton . . . .
I like what someone else wrote earlier about 1st and 2nd degree murder - that a person with a temper tantrum issue just might be societally more dangerous than the thoughtful premeditated person. But then again, maybe not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)
It was the Anthony Porter decision by the US Supreme Court that caused Illinois to first put a moratorium on the Death Penalty. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=479&invol=898
Then in 2011 Illinois repealed the Death Penalty. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...309_1_death-penalty-death-row-death-sentences http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest...eath-penalty-abolished-state-clears-death-row
The reasons remain the same wherever the Death Penalty is put aside. There is not sufficient certainty in most cases to risk the Death Penalty and the number of cases where there is enough certainty are so few in number that it's not unreasonable to simply incarcerate the person for life.
I am pretty sure you just indicated you are comfortable with the unnecessary killing of wrongly accused people to justify killing the absolutely 100% guaranteed guilty felons. Take em all out as long as you get the bad apples is a twisted piece of logic.
If you were a cop, Truscott, Morin, and Milgaard would have been executed long ago because in your words "there must be some reason the police were interested in this guy from the beginning". In all of those cases it was the cops who were proven to be lazy and wanting a fast result for expediency sake. Those three were conveniently arrested although there was not any hard evidence connecting them to the murder victims. All the evidence was proven to be circumstantial.
Googling "wrongly executed + USA" yielded some interesting results. Since 1973 the Americans have released 130 people who were later found to be innocent.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence
Factors leading to wrongful convictions include:
Inadequate legal representation
Police and prosecutorial misconduct
Perjured testimony and mistaken eyewitness testimony
Racial prejudice
Jailhouse "snitch" testimony
Suppression and/or misinterpretation of mitigating evidence
Community/political pressure to solve a case
i'm not sure why i keep having to repeat myself - i'm NOT interested in what happens in foreign countries when i'm discussing the death penalty in the only place i can cast my vote to make a difference, and that is canada, thank you
You aren't making much sense. Canada does not have the death penalty. So we have not executed people that were later found innocent through DNA testing or whatnot.
All we can do is look at similar countries with a death penalty, to see how often they have messed things up.
If we are just talking about Canada, close the thread, we don't have a death penalty, so there obviously haven't been any errors enforcing in.
taken frim
http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/crime/a/cappuntimeline.htm
1962
The last executions took place in Canada. Arthur Lucas, convicted of the premeditated murder of an informer and witness in racket discipline, and Robert Turpin, convicted of the unpremeditated murder of a policeman to avoid arrest, were hanged at the Don Jail in Toronto, Ontario.
1966
Capital punishment in Canada was limited to the killing of on-duty police officers and prison guards.
1976
Capital punishment was removed from the Canadian Criminal Code. It was replaced with a mandatory life sentence without possibility of parole for 25 years for all first-degree murders. The bill was passed by a free vote in the House of Commons. Capital punishment still remained in the Canadian National Defence Act for the most serious military offences,
military death penalty abolished 1998
Canada retained the death penalty for a number of military
offenses, including treason and mutiny. No Canadian soldier has
been charged with or executed for a capital crime in over 50 years.
On 10 December, 1998, the last vestiges of the death penalty in
Canada were abolished with the passage of legislation removing all
references to capital punishment from the National Defence Act.
- There were 710 executions in Canada between 1867 and 1962. The
last execution was carried out on December 11, 1962 when 2 men
were hanged in Toronto, Ontario. Between 1879 and 1960, there
were 438 commutations of death sentences.
Since abolition, at least 6 Canadian prisoners convicted of
first-degree murder have been released on grounds of innocence.
Two were incarcerated for more than 10 years before their
innocence was established, after wrongful conviction for crimes that
would likely have resulted in their execution if Canada had retained
the death penalty.
http://www.ccadp.org/deathpenalty-canada.htm
Canada retained the death penalty for a number of military
offenses, including treason and mutiny. No Canadian soldier has
been charged with or executed for a capital crime in over 50 years.
On 10 December, 1998, the last vestiges of the death penalty in
Canada were abolished with the passage of legislation removing all
references to capital punishment from the National Defence Act.
- There were 710 executions in Canada between 1867 and 1962. The
last execution was carried out on December 11, 1962 when 2 men
were hanged in Toronto, Ontario. Between 1879 and 1960, there
were 438 commutations of death sentences.
Since abolition, at least 6 Canadian prisoners convicted of
first-degree murder have been released on grounds of innocence.
Two were incarcerated for more than 10 years before their
innocence was established, after wrongful conviction for crimes that
would likely have resulted in their execution if Canada had retained
the death penalty.
http://www.ccadp.org/deathpenalty-canada.htm
