Stupid Parents

[gravitas]

I recognized early on in life.......

Couldn't have said it any better myself, nicely done!

More then likely end up a chain smoker

excerpts from the newspaper that ran the original pic/story

Criticism doesn't bother smoker
Joe Kennedy

Mellissa Williamson came to her door smoking a cigarette Thursday morning. It was a sign that the Southeast Roanoke woman didn't know or didn't care about the furor her photograph had ignited since it appeared in The Roanoke Times on Sept. 20.

The photo showed her seven months pregnant and smoking a cigarette. It accompanied a story about unpopular "traffic-calming" measures under way on Bullitt Avenue, where she lives. The caption said she worries about the effect of jackhammer noise on her unborn child. She couldn't have touched off a controversy more quickly if she'd called President Bush an Islamic extremist.

Dozens of calls and e-mails came to The Roanoke Times impugning her reputation and criticizing the paper for printing the photo. It glamorized or promoted smoking while pregnant, some people said. At least one syndicated talk radio host mentioned it, and the picture proliferated on Web sites, with the caption and some wise remark like, "Yeah, the noise is what the baby needs to fear."
****
Second, the weighing in of egomaniacal talk-radio hosts: Yes, they're correct in saying Williamson's unborn child - a boy named Emmitt, after her "old man," who also smokes - can be damaged by her smoking.
****
Thursday morning, Williamson said she knows smoking is bad because people have criticized her since she took up the practice 20 years ago.

"I really don't pay that much attention to it," she said. "If people don't like it, that's their opinion. They've got theirs and I've got mine."

She has tried every way to quit without success, she said.

As for smoking while pregnant, she said her doctor told her "it would be good if I cut back, but if I totally quit, it would not only cause stress on me but it would cause stress on the baby."

Speaking generally, Eric Earnhart, spokesman for Carilion Health System, said any pregnant person who comes to its facilities "is going to be advised to quit smoking."

It is possible, he said, that a person having difficulty quitting would be advised at least to cut down.

Williamson said she has cut down from two packs per day to one-half pack.

Smoking is estimated to account for 20 percent to 30 percent of low birth-weight babies, up to 14 percent of preterm deliveries and 10 percent of all infant deaths. Asthma is twice as likely in children whose mothers smoke more than 10 cigarettes per day. This is just a fraction of the possible harm.

"The most effective way to protect the fetus is to quit smoking," the American Lung Association says.

Williamson is a small woman with long brown hair. She didn't finish high school. She hasn't seen her father since she was 13. She has worked in fast food, but doesn't have a job.

"I've heard of the Internet," she said, "but I've never used it. I have no knowledge of computers whatsoever."

She didn't learn about her widespread critics until a few days after the photo appeared. Her ex-husband said his co-workers had talked about it.

"It didn't bother me," she said. "It went in one ear and out the other. I've heard this all my life."

If little "Emmitt" ends up smoking that will likely be the least of his problems

 

[rickoshadows]

Why reward someone for doing the right thing?

Duh! Then why do anything right at all?

I heard a proposal once which would pay for universities, colleges etc. by returning a small portion of the tax collected from the graduates to the institution for the rest of their lives. The amount from each individual would be very small, but the institutions would be rewarded for turning out sucessfull people by long term stable funding. And the people receiving the benefit of the education are the ones who pay for it in the end.

The same could be applied to pensions for parents. The more the children contribute to society, the larger a parent's pension would be. Deductions could be applied for burdens to society. This would also provide incentive to successful people to counteract the falling birthrate in this country.

The major stumbling point would be how to collect from people who go abroad after their education or upon reaching adult status. Well some countries have it right, citizens of these countries still owe taxes whether they earn the money in their country or not. (This would also discourage citizens of convenience from some countries starting with "L").

It would also not cost those people who chose not to have children any of their precious dimes so they can save for their retirement as they won't recive anything from the success of their offpring. Most of these individuals are an evolutionary dead end anyway, and I really couldn't care less what happens to them

 

[gravitas]

Duh! Then why do anything right at all?

Ummmm......maybe because its THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Fuck me....and you have the audacity to say I'm full of shit?

You do the right thing because thats how civilized people act. Part of the responsibility of having free will is to make the right decisions, if that wasn't core to our behaviors it would anarchy.

So by your logic every time you do something right you should get a reward? You must have been a treat for your elementary teachers.....rickshadows didn't shit while sitting at his desk, give him a gold star.......rickshadows didn't stand on a stool and piss in the water fountain, give him a gold star.....rickshadows didn't burn down the school, give him a gold star. Is that still how you behave as an adult?

With what you've shared about your family and your attitudes in this thread I'm beginning to think that of the three brothers you were the useless fuck up.

I heard a proposal once.......

While an interesting little read I have no clue as to what it has to do with this thread. Ya, so you want to tax people who are successful.....sounds like something you'd like. But beyond that what's your point?

 

[JustAGuy]

Duh! Then why do anything right at all?

Even though Gravitas already gave you the answer to this, I have to weigh in with my two cents worth too. We do the right thing and don't expect to be rewarded for it because a consensus opinion on what IS the right thing is what makes a society, any society, function. I'm sure there are some major differences between a primitive tribe that has yet to be discovered living in the uncharted boondocks of the Amazon and a band of Inuit living north of Frobisher Bay but each group is going to have a clear consensus understanding of what they consider acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

There will be some kind of punishment system in place for dealing with recalcitrant members who break the rules but there isn't going to be a system whereby those who abide by the rules get rewarded. They are expected to abide by the rules as a condition of being a member of that society.

Modern western civilization has become so caught up in the notion of entitlement that it actually feels strange to some (for instance, you, apparently) that we'd do the right thing just because it is the right thing. Instead they feel that we need some incentive to do the right thing. It's truly mind-boggling to me that some people think that way because it bespeaks a total lack of understanding of society and their role in it.

Let's look at speeding, for instance. If I owned a car that was capable of going 200 k/hour, it might be a thrill to drive it that fast every so often. And if I lived near the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah, I might indulge that desire now and again. But part of my "contract" with the society I live in is that I'm not going to drive at that speed down Portage Avenue in Winnipeg. If I have a sudden brain cramp and find myself doing it, I can fully expect to be punished for my actions. But I have no expectation, nor should I, that I'm going to be rewarded for not doing it. Having to keep that desire to drive 200 k/hr in check is counterbalanced by the understanding that I can drive down Portage Avenue with relative confidence that no one is going to crash into me because they are driving 200 k/hr. Or if I'm walking, I can cross Portage Avenue relatively certain that I'm not going get splattered by someone driving their car 200 k/hr.

In other words, we do the right thing without being rewarded because we are obliged to do so by the agreed upon conventions of the society of which we are a part. I wasn't consulted as to whether I personally agreed with all the conventions of this society and if they ever become overly onerous, I can always find a cabin in the backwoods somewhere and live like Ted Kaczynski (minus the threatening letters and mail bombs). But until that day comes, I'll live in this society without expecting to go to my mailbox and find a government cheque rewarding me for not taking a dump on a public thoroughfare or for not strangling my neighbor no matter how much he/she may have pissed me off.

 

[gravitas]

^^^^thanks for the very eloquent and well thought out reply

 

[rickoshadows]

But until that day comes, I'll live in this society without expecting to go to my mailbox and find a government cheque rewarding me for not taking a dump on a public thoroughfare or for not strangling my neighbor no matter how much he/she may have pissed me off.

So by your logic every time you do something right you should get a reward? You must have been a treat for your elementary teachers.....rickshadows didn't shit while sitting at his desk, give him a gold star.......rickshadows didn't stand on a stool and piss in the water fountain, give him a gold star.....rickshadows didn't burn down the school, give him a gold star. Is that still how you behave as an adult?

You missed the whole point, I'm not surprised

You do the right thing because thats how civilized people act. Part of the responsibility of having free will is to make the right decisions, if that wasn't core to our behaviors it would anarchy.

So, how is this working out?

We do the right thing and don't expect to be rewarded for it because a consensus opinion on what IS the right thing is what makes a society, any society, function. I'm sure there are some major differences between a primitive tribe that has yet to be discovered living in the uncharted boondocks of the Amazon and a band of Inuit living north of Frobisher Bay but each group is going to have a clear consensus understanding of what they consider acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

Actually, the major difference would be that the reward for doing the right thing for the benefit of society would be more apparent in a small isolated community. In the very large urban enviroments of today, doing the right thing has very little immediate or obvious reward, and in many cases has a short term cost. This coupled with an increasingly larger segment of society which perceives no benefit to themselves from this society, we end up with large groups who are in it only for themselves, give no consideration or respect for others and so on. Attributes of society which many members of this board have been moaning about recently.

The difference between you and me and many of these juvenile delinquents you refer to is that, we can percieve the long term benefits to society and ourselves from doing the right thing. Think of it as social capital, you wouldn't invest money into something if you didn't expect some kind of return. A society which only uses the stick and keeps the carrots for themselves is only planting the seeds of it's eventual downfall.

Now to go back to the origin of this thread, parents not accepting responsibility for their children. One can not assign responsibility to without providing the resources. In this case, parental authority. Parents are unable to constrain difficult children because the whole world is telling the kids that their parents are not allowed to discipline them. Society has usurped parental authority.

Now, where my previous points fit in: I think we can agree that the wrong segment of society is breeding. And, that the cost, both financial and personal for choosing to raise children has increased tremendously. Even the status of parenthood has become marginalized. Contrary to two generations ago, where children were a normal part of society and were seen everywhere, today families with children are expected to go to different restaurants, sit in separate sections at events etc.

The proposal to restructure how taxes are collected and redistributed in order to provide incentive to successful couples to raise successful children would replace the the present practice of taxing successful people for the sole purpose of subsidizing the offspring of non-contributing members of society. Make no mistake, we are already taxed to provide pensions and secondary education for someone elses progeny. (Gee, almost like going back to tax deductions for dependants vice tax credits).

 

[LonelyGhost]

The difference between you and me and many of these juvenile delinquents you refer to is that, we can percieve the long term benefits to society and ourselves from doing the right thing.

Now to go back to the origin of this thread, parents not accepting responsibility for their children. One can not assign responsibility to without providing the resources.

Now, where my previous points fit in: I think we can agree that the wrong segment of society is breeding.

The proposal to restructure how taxes are collected and redistributed in order to provide incentive to successful couples to raise successful children would replace the the present practice of taxing successful people for the sole purpose of subsidizing the offspring of non-contributing members of society. Make no mistake, we are already taxed to provide pensions and secondary education for someone elses progeny. (Gee, almost like going back to tax deductions for dependants vice tax credits).

unfortunately, with so many people now operating under their sense
of entitlement delusion, no matter what resources you provide it
won't make any difference in their attitude toward others, including
their own kids.

until we get rid of the 'get credit, you deserve whatever you want'
attitudes that pervade our consumer society, people will just figure
that its someone else's responsibility to pay their debts, give them
a living and raise their stupid kids.

what we need to do is tell every parent every minute of every day
that THEY are responsible for their kids and if they don't take that
responsibility seriously, that there will be bigger and bigger
sanctions for each transgression no matter how rich or poor
you happen to be.

As for some of the comments from others about 'sterilization' etc.,
well, I would start with smokers! seems to be the quickest and most
reliable indicator of 'low-life' (and I'm not talking poor, etc) ...

forget about all the other indicators of crime, just arrest people
who smoke and toss them in jail for 20 years ... solve crime overnight!

 

[rickoshadows]

unfortunately, with so many people now operating under their sense
of entitlement delusion, no matter what resources you provide it
won't make any difference in their attitude toward others, including
their own kids.

until we get rid of the 'get credit, you deserve whatever you want'
attitudes that pervade our consumer society, people will just figure
that its someone else's responsibility to pay their debts, give them
a living and raise their stupid kids.

That is the point. If a parent's eventual pension is directly proportional to the success of their children, it will be something earned. (Note: parents do give up a large amount of potential retirement savings/income to raise a family) The same for educational institutions, the income from a portion of taxes collected from their graduates would be directly proportional to how much they contribute to society. (I assume there would be a few less arts classes and a few more science, engineering and business courses). Will it take a generation to change the course of societal decay? Probably, but all the more reason to get started now.

 

[Randy Whorewald]

I for one would love to see the birthrate fall everywhere. We don't need to be trying to share this little fucking planet with 12 billion or 20 billion people.

Ditto that Methos.

Unfortunately most increases in population are occurring in third world countries - ie the ones who can least afford it and therefore, we (the more fortunate ones), need to keep growing in order to generate the wealth that helps them out. Its a never ending cycle.

 

[JustAGuy]

That is the point. If a parent's eventual pension is directly proportional to the success of their children, it will be something earned.

But under that system, someone like myself, who was wise enough not to have any children because I realized I'd be a lousy parent, would be penalized for not having them? I don't think I ought to be rewarded for not having any progeny but I sure as hell shouldn't be penalized for it either.

 

[gravitas]

You missed the whole point, I'm not surprised

Please kind sir indulge us with wisdom and make clear your point.

So, how is this working out?

Well lets see.....in the past 48 hours I've been on two flights, crossed an international border, gone grocery shopping, driven on roads, went to the bank, spent time in offices, restaurants and other public places all without any significant problems or impediment. So ya, people living within the confines of normal and accepted behavior is working out quite well.

Think of it as social capital, you wouldn't invest money into something if you didn't expect some kind of return. A society which only uses the stick and keeps the carrots for themselves is only planting the seeds of it's eventual downfall.

Oh for fuck sakes you are disconnected from reality and clearly have no idea what makes me tick. Of course I believe in the concept of social capital and of course I expect a return but I'm not so obtuse to expect that return is in the form of cash or other tangible asset. Donating time or money to charitable causes provides the return in knowing I'm helping someone to have a better life and become self-sufficient to the best of their ability. For some people that means they'll get off the streets, get a job and become a net contributor to society. For others it simply means that as society we reduce the harm they commit to themselves or others.

I've never advocated the "keeping of carrots" but rather the responsibility to earn those carrots and thats what you don't seem to understand.

One can not assign responsibility to without providing the resources. In this case, parental authority. Parents are unable to constrain difficult children because the whole world is telling the kids that their parents are not allowed to discipline them. Society has usurped parental authority.

Thats the first semi-intelligent thing you've added to this thread. Absolutely society has been part of the problem but who makes up society? You and I of course, so it should be up to society to change that tide of irresponsibility. That said its still up to the individual parents to raise their children as best as possible and not to look for a crutch of "oh woe is me, society says I can't discipline my kids".

Even the status of parenthood has become marginalized. Contrary to two generations ago, where children were a normal part of society and were seen everywhere, today families with children are expected to go to different restaurants, sit in separate sections at events etc.

Give me a break.....parenthood becoming marginalized? You don't get out much do you. In the past 20 years the resources made available and focus on parenting has dramatically increased. Anything as simple as having baby change stations in public washrooms, more specialized stores to an increased focus in pop culture with no end of shows like Crash Test Mommy. Just because restaurants ask parents to sit in a separate section doesn't make you marginalized, it allows you to congregate with all the other breeders and lets the people without kids enjoy their meals.

 

[aznboi9]

so to add to the latest list of idiotic things that happen
when stupid people have kids, the stupid kids are now
moving up from simple vandalism and the torture of small
animals to setting fires.

What spurred the posting of this thread anyways? A specific incident?

Our governments share a great deal of responsibility in all this. When Statistics Canada tells them that the population growth is stagnant, or there are more people dying than being born, they valiantly step up to the plate (as they do in Quebec - $8,000 at birth + $7,000 in additional incentives) and start doling out wads of cash to would be mothers. And then, who do you think starts procreating en masse? Of course, the ones who can afford it the least - the same ones whose kids are raised on the streets...

I heard something interesting about when Bill Clinton was Governor of Arkansas, or whatever state it was. Apparently, they were concerned about the increasing number of single mom’s in the population, or something to that affect, so he decreased the amount that welfare paid for each kid. From what I was told, birthrates in that demographic diminished soon after.

Kind of makes you think.

 

[LonelyGhost]

What spurred the posting of this thread anyways? A specific incident?

yes, these two fucks last summer nearly beat a bunny to death
throwing rocks at it (one of the neighbours caught them, gave them
shit and rescued the rabbit, which unfortunately died anyway)

this week they set fire to a lawn on the street in the neighbourhood
where i live ...

 

[gravitas]

nearly beat a bunny to death.....they set fire to a lawn

How old are these little bastards?


rickshadows,

any commentary on how we should nurture them and that they and their parents aren't responsible?

 

[Smother]

Parents are a blame to a certain degree......once they get to that certain that the Kids think they know it all....if they get involved with the wrong gang....it becomes peer pressure....Parents can do so much.....Can't keep you kids under lock and key.....where I put more of the blame is the whole system in general....Our crime laws as we all know ...are a total joke that ...a comedy show....
You go over seas...Europe or Asia....and shit like this...at least to this degree..doesn't Exist..
Our Government has to introduce way harsher penalties...for crimes like this...

 

[gravitas]

where I put more of the blame is the whole system in general

I've never understood comments like that. You speak of the "system" as its a couple of guys in a basement somewhere controlling everything. We're the system and we've let it spin out of control with the bullshit attitude that people should be hugged when they do something wrong vs. being held accountable.

Our Government has to introduce way harsher penalties

I'd be happy if the gov't and courts simply started to use the laws/penalties we currently have.

 

[Smother]

I've never understood comments like that. You speak of the "system" as its a couple of guys in a basement somewhere controlling everything. We're the system and we've let it spin out of control with the bullshit attitude that people should be hugged when they do something wrong vs. being held accountable.



I'd be happy if the gov't and courts simply started to use the laws/penalties we currently have.

Grav...by the system....I did mean the Government...since they make the rules to a certain degree...

Cheers..

 

[Randy Whorewald]

Grav...by the system....I did mean the Government...since they make the rules to a certain degree...

Cheers..

WE are the government, WE elect the jokers who make the laws and appoint the judges. What we have in place in this country are too many years of electing left leaning representatives who are elected by ppl who buy / believe their liberal bullshit.

 

[Smother]

WE are the government, WE elect the jokers who make the laws and appoint the judges. What we have in place in this country are too many years of electing left leaning representatives who are elected by ppl who buy / believe their liberal bullshit.

YUP.....I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU BUD.....!!!!

BUT UNFORTUNALTY....ONCE THEY ARE IN....WHO EVER IT MAY BE.....IT'S OUT OF OUR HANDS.....RIGHT??

 

[rickoshadows]

How old are these little bastards?


rickshadows,

any commentary on how we should nurture them and that they and their parents aren't responsible?

Did the lawn belong to some grouchy old fuck who thinks children should be seen and not heard, separated from the codgers who wish to eat in peace etc?

I never said parents and these children shouldn't be held to account. But their parents aren't allowed to hold their children to account, so how can we hold them responsible?

What I have said that we, as a society, have been encouraging the lowest common denominator to multiply and have been subtly discouraging some of our best and brightest from having children.

Now, I made a proposal which I feel merited some consideration, You didn't like it, fine! What is your idea? or are you going to complain about "kids these days" until some juvy collapses your melon full of shit with a baseball bat?