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Apparently, Krista Ford doesn't dress like a whore...stupid tweet!

Miss*Bijou

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More specifically, people rape because they are sociopaths. Telling them not to will be completely ineffective because they allready know not to. These sorts of people do lots of other bad things as well, such as stealing, assaulting, being ruthless etc etc, and telling them not do that is equally ineffective. This is not something that is just men, women do it to. There is no simple solution because that type of personality is deeply embedded in society, and while some aspects of it are despised, others are admired. What you want to do is eliminate anti-social behaviour, but are you really prepared for how broadly that would have to cut to be effective?

The best solution to a problem is prevention. One part of that is education, but an equally important part is personal responsibility in not placing yourself in a situation where it might happen, because there is no way to stop it without the sort of social engineering nomally associated with autocratic societies.




That's the whole thing about this Tugela: most rapists are NOT sociopaths or freaks or sadistic predators. Most rapists are surprisingly like any other normal guy. There would be a lot less rapes happening if rapists were all creepy, soulless boogeyman types. They're not, most of them are the same as any other non rapist. That's the problem, they can't just be spotted and picked out if a crowd.


'A situation where it might happen' is....well, just about ANY situation where you might find yourself in the company of a person who is also a rapist. Kinda hard to narrow it down. I know, you meant the specific situation where girl is dressed an immodest way, has had a drink or two and is walking home at night, by herself, in a sketchy area.

Even if we ignore the fact that the only way to avoid that from ever happening, even with all the best of intentions, precaution etc..is to stay home wearing your pajamas - since we know that most rapes or sexual assaults don't actually happen that way (stranger in a dark alley) but rather in the women's home (or a home) by a person she knows, then wouldn't it make more sense to focus these kinds of 'prevention' efforts on *those* types of 'situations where (we know) it is (far more likely to) happen? Why only avoid situations where a minority of rapes occur and not work on preventing rapes where they occur most? With a person you know, on a date, at home, regardless of what ones wearing?

I mean, shouldn't a girl just avoid finding herself in a situation where she's alone, say, watching a movie with a guy she may or may not like because god forbid, his lust might overpower him and he might not resist raping her if she turns him down, or doesn't want to do any more than just make out or something? I mean, that lust... Shouldn't she just use common sense and know that she's playing with fire and should use precaution when it comes to teh lust?

You probably agree that its absurd to expect women to lock themselves at home, to avoid ever being alone w/ any man - close friends, acquaintance, date or whatever - to avoid finding herself in a situation where it might happen. Of course, women find themselves in this situation all the time, at all times of the day and with a wide range of types of men or motivations and rape never happens.

Of course, if it does happen, no one (decent) would even consider suggesting a woman should have known she was doing something careless or risky so she can't possibly be that surprised that she would get raped. Why the different attitude? Could it be that rapes happen because there are rapists, not because women are home watching a movie with a man? Rapes happen because there are rapists and not women who want to makeout or fool around without going too far? Could it be that rapes happen because there are rapists and not because there are women who go out on dates?

And if we all know that nothing of these situations actually play a real role in a woman getting raped and wouldn't imagine advising women to please use some common sense and avoid all these situations where rape might happen, why are we still convinced that if only she avoids dressing 'like a whore' and avoids those types of situations nice, reasonable, respectable and sensible girls just don't put themselves in (presumably only because they're at home getting raped on their own couch - but nevermind) because we all just know that is where it might happen?

All it is, is slut shaming, sexist bull crap. People think its totally reasonable and rationalize it very well because the sexism is so ingrained into our society, its so part of it that no one even questions it. A person who doesnt consider themselves sexist at all can utter those words without ever thinking there's anything sexist about it and thinking of it as no more than common sense.

So I don't think all of you who are convinced of the wisdom behind that 'advice' are misogynists but I think that if we had not all been so thoroughly conditioned to the sexist world we are a part of, it would be very clear to all of you as well just how absurd and yes, sexist, that 'advice' really is. Without consciously deciding to re-evaluate some long held beliefs, I don't think anything can crack that conditioning though, so I don't really think these debates ever accomplish much unfortunately.



Edit: just read Violet's post above: thanks for posting that article. Disturbing.
 

violetblake

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^^ You tell em!

I would like to add that although society can be partially blamed for raising people to be sexist, it is everyone's responsibility to THINK. Every opinion I have has been thought over a great amount, and as I grow older and my experiences change and I get more mature I continue to change my opinions. I've always been open to hearing the other side of the story and thinking matters through.

Considering how many awesome men are out there that 'get it', and don't get defensive whenever you even mention the word rape (clearly we know it's a minority of men who rape, but whenever a guy jumps up to point that out, or say "men get raped too", or blah blah blah, you can see why women get frustrated). You have a responsibility in life to not be a dick, and that includes learning all the FACTS you can about something, in this case being rape. We're not even debating opinions here, you're debating proven facts.
 

wilde

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once again short bus, not the same thing

going into a war zone and driving on the streets of Canada not quite the same
Yes Einstein, but they are both inherently dangerous to some degree. Which according to you: "if you put yourself in a situation that you know is dangerous, then you would have to be stupid not to expect something dangerous to possibly happen".
 

overdone

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Yes Einstein, but they are both inherently dangerous to some degree. Which according to you: "if you put yourself in a situation that you know is dangerous, then you would have to be stupid not to expect something dangerous to possibly happen".
driving a car in this country isn't considered dangerous, at least not by people with an IQ above their shoe size, :eyebrows:

try again, get some help from your mensa friends this time
 

vancity_cowboy

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driving a car in this country isn't considered dangerous,
If driving isn't considered dangerous why do we have seatbelts?
seatbelts... and airbags... and traffic control lights... and first responders... and policemen... and ambulances... and icbc?

just ask somebody from surrey or richmond about driving being considered dangerous
 

wilde

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driving a car in this country isn't considered dangerous, at least not by people with an IQ above their shoe size, :eyebrows:
Motor vehicle accident is the leading cause of death in many countries, Mr. Thick as a brick.:doh:
 

wilde

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vancity_cowboy

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The fact that it is accidental or not, does not make it any less dangerous.
all i'm saying is that it is not the leading cause of death - that would be heart attack, stroke or pneumonia; however, it is the leading cause of accidental death

semantics, but when you are dealing with mr. thick as a brick you don't want any obvious holes in your position :)
 

wilde

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all i'm saying is that it is not the leading cause of death - that would be heart attack, stroke or pneumonia; however, it is the leading cause of accidental death

semantics, but when you are dealing with mr. thick as a brick you don't want any obvious holes in your position :)
You are right and I have hijacked this thread for far too long. I am still curious as to his opinion to Krista Ford's "& don’t dress like a whore" statement. I am guessing he is in the "blame the victim" camp judging by what he has posted in this thread.
 

overdone

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Motor vehicle accident is the leading cause of death in many countries, Mr. Thick as a brick.:doh:

so, it isn't here, your argument was it's dangerous here, it's not, the facts don't back you up

driving in Canada and dying is not statistically significant

it's extremely safe to drive here and live, just ask the millions that do it everyday and return home alive


so send us a postcard when you get to Afghanistan, if you make it to the airport :fear:
 

vancity_cowboy

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so, it isn't here, your argument was it's dangerous here, it's not, the facts don't back you up

driving in Canada and dying is not statistically significant

it's extremely safe to drive here and live, just ask the millions that do it everyday and return home alive


so send us a postcard when you get to Afghanistan, if you make it to the airport :fear:
well hold on a minute there. worldwide, deaths due to motor vehicle accidents rate 19th on a list of 79 causes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

in canada deaths due to motor vehicle accidents are 6th (men) and 8th (women) on the list

http://www.acbr.com/causdeat.htm

these are not insignificant numbers, as they show motor vehicle accidents as one of the big killers. dangerous if either you or the other driver are not paying attention to business. as a matter of fact in canada motor vehicle accidents kill way more people than HIV/AIDS. i would say wilde's claims are valid
 

overdone

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well hold on a minute there. worldwide, deaths due to motor vehicle accidents rate 19th on a list of 79 causes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

in canada deaths due to motor vehicle accidents are 6th (men) and 8th (women) on the list

http://www.acbr.com/causdeat.htm

these are not insignificant numbers, as they show motor vehicle accidents as one of the big killers. dangerous if either you or the other driver are not paying attention to business. as a matter of fact in canada motor vehicle accidents kill way more people than HIV/AIDS. i would say wilde's claims are valid
people die, how they die isn't the point, the point is your chances/probability of getting in a car in Canada and dying is so low it isn't worth worrying about

how many people drive each day in Canada, out of the 30 some million, what a couple of million at least? How many miles driven?

8-10 people per day on average over a year will die in a car accident, about 2800-3000 total in Canada

8-10 out of how many, even if it's only 500,000 trips per day

not statistically significant

and once again, wtf does dying of aids got to do with your argument about driving in Canada? Kinda like your worldwide death comment, who the fuck cares, we are talking about Canada.

why not mention something else that's irrelevant about driving in Canada :confused:
 

wilde

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so, it isn't here, your argument was it's dangerous here, it's not, the facts don't back you up

driving in Canada and dying is not statistically significant

it's extremely safe to drive here and live, just ask the millions that do it everyday and return home alive
Driving is one of the most heavily regulated activities in most developed countries. If it's so safe, then why do we have all these rules and regulations governing it. Why do we have airbags, seatbelts, insurance, speed limit and crash ratings? Why is the motors vehicle act thicker than the bible? Why do we have MADD and random road checks? Because driving is dangerous.:doh: BTW, dangerous does not solely equate dying which is what you seem to be suggesting. Non-fatal motor vehicle are pretty dangerous too...
 
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overdone

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oh fuck, mental midgets

it's basic math

it's your opinion that it is dangerous

the fact is people get into cars everyday in this country and return home safely in far greater numbers than the ones who happen to die


getting into the bathtub is dangerous

eating food with a fork is probably dangerous to a simpleton

it doesn't mean you have a high probability of dying from using a fork or having a shower

fuck I'm done

it was about a young blonde chick saying something just as stupid

that women should expect the probability of being raped in Canada to be a cause of the way they dress
 

Miss*Bijou

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people die, how they die isn't the point, the point is your chances/probability of getting in a car in Canada and dying is so low it isn't worth worrying about

how many people drive each day in Canada, out of the 30 some million, what a couple of million at least? How many miles driven?

8-10 people per day on average over a year will die in a car accident, about 2800-3000 total in Canada

8-10 out of how many, even if it's only 500,000 trips per day

not statistically significant

why not mention something else that's irrelevant about driving in Canada :confused:

Overdone, the exact same argument could be made as to how statistically insignificant the 'risk' of rape' as a result of wearing something considered too revealing (by whom, btw?) as to make that woman irresponsible.

If your car gets smashed or you get hit as a pedestrian crossing the road and you are injured or killed in the accident, is it your own fault for deciding to drive/walk on that road and/or at that time? Or is the other drivers for burning a red light, driving drunk or speeding when he sees you're about to cross the street?

So why is it her fault (personal responsibility) if a woman is attacked while on her way home or to her car, something she and millions of women have done hundreds of thousands of times and do every day because she was wearing some people may believe was (too) revealing?


You are comparing someone's material possessions (in an earlier post), inanimate and superficially valuable "things" to a woman's body.....and you don't see anything wrong with that comparison? I would say that the very comparison illustrates quite clearly. Is a man's body considered fair game, for the taking as well?

Also, what exactly does dressing 'like a whore' entail and does everyone even agree on what that is? Sure, people can probably agree on an extreme representation of what that might be, but what makes the way a woman dresses 'bait' or irresponsible?

Who decides whether the way she's dressed amounts to 'walking around with cash hanging out of your pockets' or not? Would you suggest a thick turtleneck, sweatpants as a way not to be 'like money sticking out of one's pockets'? Do you think that would make her safe in that same situation in which if she was dressed provocatively she'd be to blame for her irresponsibility?

The problem here, is that we find it acceptable to put partial blame on a woman because of how she dressed, where, at what time and with whom. The problem here is that we implicitly perpetuate that dressing a certain way sends out a certain message, when in reality, we can very well admit the person wearing the clothes is not literally sending out a message that says she wants to or should be raped or have anything else assumed even when she clearly communicates the message that contradicts the imaginary one we think her clothes send out. This is not about a woman's clothes, it is about men who rape.

Can you say that upon seeing a woman you judge to be dressed "like a whore", you seriously have to ask yourself whether she might just want to be raped by you? That's absurd, of course. Could the clothes be a conscious effort to get attention? Sure. But getting attention isn't the same as wanting to fuck any guy out there or be raped by any guy who doesn't understand the concept and thinks that her clothes somehow entitle him to do what he wants regardless of what she wants or says.

If we accept this (that her clothes somehow send out a "message"), then we remove partial responsibility from the rapist and assign it to a woman for having sent 'that kind of message". We perpetuate and reinforce the entitlement belief by passively accepting it and by not challenging it. That's no solution at all and it doesn't address the underlying cause, which is the belief of rapists that they are entitled to take and violate a woman's body without her consent and despite her protests. What needs addressing is not the way women dress but the way we accept this entitlement to a woman's body.

Men may be doing the raping - but women, like that twat, Barbara Kay, allow them to feel confident about their entitlement to do so when they repeat the canard that a woman choice of clothes sends out some kind off message, as if there is a neon sign that says 'open'. Providing an excuse or part justification to rapists is the most counter productive, ineffectual, illogical and dangerous way to chance nothing and protect the status quo. It leaves women equally at risk of being raped and rapists just as likely to rape and continue to feel entitled to do it.

Do we go around telling pedestrians or other drivers to take personal responsibility and stay off the roads, particularly on weekends after 12am because there are drunk drivers who are dangerous and put their lives at risk? Do we say 'yeah, drunk drivers are bad but that's the way it is, there will always be people who drink and drive, so it's everyone else's personal responsibility to stay off the roads, especially on certain days/times and intersections?' No, aside from educating people about not getting into a car where the driver has been drinking, we make this about changing the attitudes of people who are the CAUSE, we change the attitudes of drivers about drinking and driving.

We don't try to make potential unwitting victims personally responsible over something they can't control, like finding themselves the victims of a drunk driver, as they do something they and millions of others have done and do everyday without incidents and call that "prevention" or "personal responsibility". Yet this is exactly what we do when it comes to rape.

And IMO this approach is perfect Nonsense and doesn't prevent rape whatsoever but rather, perpetuates it.
 
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wilde

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the fact is people get into cars everyday in this country and return home safely in far greater numbers than the ones who happen to die
Yeah I am done with your Einstein club too. Here is a parting shot at you. The fact is volunteers go to Afghanistan and return home in far greater numbers than the ones who are kidnapped. Does that mean it is not dangerous?
 
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