Ukraine is now at war with Russia - official and only Ukraine Thread

[rlock]

Like anything else in life some will flinch in face of bullies and their excessive behavior and others will punch back never to be bothered ever again.

You see NATO as an agressor but if you look at most of the timeline of the last 3 decades they were mostly reactive in my book . Not that we can punch Putin in the nose because of the nuclear deterrent but enough about giving him all the leeway he has been given since rising to power.

I think that assessment has it backwards. Every Russian move during that time has been a counter-move against something the US / NATO has done to them already. It's a long, long list of grievances, so I won't post it all here. (There's enough material to have university courses on this subject alone.) Bottom line: the Russians see themselves as the ones who are punching the bully back. Now after 3 decades of what they see as broken promises and outright abuse, now they will never view NATO as anything other than a clear threat to their nation's survival. I think they would accept peace with the rest of Europe, if it was only European nations they were negotiating with - in other words, if they believed that Europe was actually acting for itself and not doing Washington's bidding.

On the other hand, in all the post-Cold War years, the US leadership (whether Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter anymore) has never taken that potential for violent push-back seriously, and sold its people on the idea that there simply is no validity to any nation challenging their actions at all. They routinely push and intrude on other nations, even violently, and the world does not sanction their leaders or economy, or gang up to stop them. As a result, they've had a long run of doing whatever they like to whomever they like, and it's a bad habit they're not willing to break, even if it means causing a major war in Europe or World War 3.

It all could have been avoided, so ask yourself why it wasn't. Honesty, mutual respect, and peaceful co-existence all got kicked to the curb a long time ago. That's why this is going on in 2022.

The rhetoric we hear today obscures facts and ignores history, and knowing the full (long) story of how this came to pass is why I don't just buy into the simplistic "white hat / black hat" arguments.

 

[westwoody]

Italy just seized a couple of yachts and villas from Putin’s oligarchs.
Lots of support for doing it in London but there is so much dirty money there it might not happen.

 

[westwoody]

Honesty, mutual respect, and peaceful co-existence all got kicked to the curb a long time ago.

Reality is going to be a shock for you.

 

[uncleg]

Careful, I think Putin is on this thread....

 

[80watts]

Don't try that "America defines all western (including Canadian) freedoms, and we must follow their lead" argument. The Americans did not invent freedom or democracy, nor ever grant it to us like some sort of god we must obey to have it.

I don't wish Ukraine badly, they are for sure victims of the situation, but I'll never root for US ambitions, knowing the full history behind what's going on. Ukraine is bleeding because it is caught between US ambition and Russian anger. They could have been neutral, and had peace instead, but that option was dismissed out of hand. "Unprovoked war", my ass - the media is lying its ass off about that part. To believe that, you'd have to pretend like everything before 2022 never happened - 20 years of "nope, nothing to see here" going on, and then suddenly a war.

Maybe NATO should have been disbanded when as the Cold War ended, instead of sticking around long enough to cause a new one.

Freedoms- If you believe that everyone has a voice, not just a dictators voice.
If you live in a communist country, you don't have freedom. Although Russia can't be considered a communist country anymore, it has turned into a dictatorship run by Putin. Putin is putting his own people in jail illegally just because they speak out against him. Currently he is killing his own people by invading Ukraine, also any war protests in Russia and the people are arrested. In Canada The Truckers were finally arrested; after creating alot of harassment/nuisance of the local people, not to mention closing international borders and trade. They will have a day in court guaranteed by Canadian Law. In Russia its a kangaroo court. During the cold war why were people so happy to live outside the iron curtain?

Putin was losing control of his position through political opposition. The internet/news from other countries. Look at the ex-Warsaw pact members that have joined NATO and Europe. why? Because they have a chance of a better life. Look at Russia, in the last 30 years alot of Oligarchs made fortunes at the expense of their own people. These are the owners of those really big superyachts worth hundreds of million of dollars. Look at Trudeau, although he is a rich boy, I don't think he has a superyacht the size and price of the an Russian Oligarch.

FDR was elected to the white house 4 times. On the third time when he ran, he was accused of trying to become a dictator. This is the President that made the US Great. He brought his country out of the depression in the 1930s and lead his country through WW2, dying just before the surrender of Germany. In 1951 the US made the most any one can have in office is 2 terms. To prevent dictatorship (22 Amendment).

Putin has made himself President until 2036 under laws he signed himself... So had Hilter, by abolishing all opposition parties when he came to power. So has the Chinese President, who got rid of the 2 term limit in 2018. Lets look at Suddam, he made himself president for life. Look at that Belrussian fellow, who won by 80% in Belarus.

So here in Canada we can call Trudeau a shit head. IN these other countries calling the leader a shit-head gets you a jail sentence or murdered.
Doesn't prevent Trudeau from suing your ass off, cause you have to prove in court he is a shit-head.

So really think about what freedom is and how lucky we are in Canada with a democratic tradition.

 

[80watts]

The Russians (Putin) clearly underestimated the resolve and bravery of the Ukrainian leadership, military and citizens. Cowards tend to make that mistake.

Putin was ready to invade Ukraine under the pretense of nuclear war if NATO responded for the Ukraine. Instead NATO preached the defensive terms of the NATO treaty (If one is attacked the other have to respond and protect the attacked country). Putin can push the button at any time. Currently look at where the Russian Forces are. East of the Dneiper River. Gaining Russia unprecedented access to the Black Sea, choking off Ukraine from the Black Sea. The systematic destroying of these cities means he intends to keep the east part of the Ukraine in Russia. The increased resistance of the Ukraine people gives him the excuse of genocide, should he need it.

I don't know if coward is the term I use, I would use the term fucken crazy just on the nuclear war issue.

Kudos for the Ukraine resistance, unless they get equipment and extra people to fight, they will lose Ukraine. With no air power, they need anti air missiles, anti-tank projectiles, snipers and other military supplies and personnel to be more effective against the Russian troops.
Unfortunately the troops that are in the Ukraine are mostly conscripted troops (cannon folder) for the excuse of when enough of them get killed, the Russians can up the ante by using chemical and or nuclear weapons if not these, then to bleed the Ukrainian people. The Russian best troops are still on the Russian side of the Border.

Personally I would give the Ukrainians alot of those 50 cal sniper rifles. They can stop cars and Russian troops, especially when bottlenecked in ruins of cities.

Strategically Putin has left his north and east flank of Russia vulnerable to China and or other forces, especially where the gas/oil comes from.

 

[rlock]

The Ukranians are also receiving an enormous amount of intelligence support from NATO, capabilities from spy satellites, early warning of air attacks, SIGINT, precise targeting of Russian air and armour that they would never have on their own. Don't kid yourself that Ukraine is resisting all alone, this war is really NATO versus Russia. Always has been, since before this latest phase of the conflict began.

 

[steverino]

Russia may win the battle, but they will never win the war. They will drain every last ruble trying to keep down the insurgency. And the ruble isn't worth much.

 

[westwoody]

Yapping about the importance of debate and respect is idiotic.
Putin doesn’t give a fuck what anyone else thinks.

 

[frisky business]

The Ukranians are also receiving an enormous amount of intelligence support from NATO, capabilities from spy satellites, early warning of air attacks, SIGINT, precise targeting of Russian air and armour that they would never have on their own. Don't kid yourself that Ukraine is resisting all alone, this war is really NATO versus Russia. Always has been, since before this latest phase of the conflict began.

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Thanks, man.

I don't know what your source is since what you write is not really reported in the mainstream Western press but it makes total sense.

For all we know the "Allies" have Special Forces on the ground, possibly including JTF2 -- communicating, coordinating, liaising, advising, teaching, training, and who knows -- sniping.
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[SkinnyJohn]

What do the majority of the posters feel how this will end? Nukes dropped? Nukes Averted? Putin ousted? World will end soon? Other?

 

[MB Mod]

What do the majority of the posters feel how this will end? Nukes dropped? Nukes Averted? Putin ousted? World will end soon? Other?

As modeled many times in Cold War scenarios Putin will get frustrated with the slow progress in Ukraine and NATO interference and will use tactical nuclear weapons. NATO will reply in kind, escalation will follow.

 

[SkinnyJohn]

As modeled many times in Cold War scenarios Putin will get frustrated with the slow progress in Ukraine and NATO interference and will use tactical nuclear weapons. NATO will reply in kind, escalation will follow.

End result? Millions dead? Billions due to the spread of radiation fallout?

 

[westwoody]

Limited nuclear exchange ending with Putin killed by NATO nukes or his own generals.

 

[marsvolta]

Whats going to happen is that Russia will take Ukraine and then have one of the most massive insurgencies in history, supplied by the might of western economic and technological powers. Sanctions will be absolute and make North Korea look like a western shopping mall. His country will go bankrupt and dark and he will be at war with his own people in short time. Finally, the bunker.

 

[uncleg]

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Thanks, man.

I don't know what your source is since what you write is not really reported in the mainstream Western press but it makes total sense.

For all we know the "Allies" have Special Forces on the ground, possibly including JTF2 -- communicating, coordinating, liaising, advising, teaching, training, and who knows -- sniping.
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Not sure which mainstream Western press you're watching/reading but CBC reported the intel support Ukraine is getting from the west.

 

[masterblaster]

What do the majority of the posters feel how this will end? Nukes dropped? Nukes Averted? Putin ousted? World will end soon? Other?

Trump will fly over in his private jet to give support to his buddy Putin and be shot down by a U.S. supplied stinger missle.

 

[MissingOne]

Trudeau will use the war for one photo op too many, and the war will end out of embarrassment for Canada.

 

[MB Mod]

Limited nuclear exchange ending with Putin killed by NATO nukes or his own generals.

If they nuke Moscow to take out Putin I recommend you crack open a beer, light a smoke, go outside and look southwest towards Minot ND and watch the minuteman missiles launch. You won’t live long enough to finish either.

 

[masterpoonhunter]

The more the way this is going, some brave general needs to shoot Putin and his various war criminal bum boys before the button is pushed, and a retaliation of any kind happens. If so it's all over boys. As per esteemed MB Mod so eloquently put it.