Prostitution a victimless crime?

[East Detroit]

@Susi

We're all aware of how you've committed your time & effort to make the sex trade a safer place for all our sisters. But exactly what gives you the right to make a statement about levels of human trafficking in this trade?

Are you employed by Interpol, the FBI, CSIS or the RCMP? Exactly how do you substantiate your claims about human trafficking being an insignificant part of the sex trade? Where do you get your information? I suspect you feel that because you're an individual with a lengthy history in the sex industry you feel that you have some understanding of human trafficking.

It's quite obviously that the majority of women working the street corner are not there by choice. And the women who work in massage parlours? Language barriers aside, why is their so little input from them on sex forums? What information do you base your assumptions on? It's often stated that these women made the decision to choose to come to Canada. Did they or was that decision actually a choice made for self preservation? Like how when someone in organized crime puts a gun to your temple and says make a decision or else. If these women in massage parlours have so much control of their lives, why do none of them venture out on their own? You don't need to be able to speak English to think "Why don't I just do this for myself and keep all the money for me".

And what about the upscale escorts who work independently? We hear how great this world is yet some of these women have to change their working names because they have serious issues with stalkers? Why don't you just come out and admit it but much of what is said is more about marketing than it is about reality?

Finally Susi, if the sex trade is so grand and wonderful for all these women, why do you need a police liaison? I know people from varying professions, none of them need a police liaison. The fact is the sex trade at all levels is a high risk lifestyle, especially for newcomers. There are no courses on how to be a sex trade worker. There is no apprenticeship where a junior woman works with a more senior woman on how to file taxes, how to screen calls, how to do whatever. For the most part they're left to their own devices to learn on the job. Even the mafia trains its own.

In the sex trade there is this misguided belief that if the truth came out that it might scare away some of the clients and therefore be bad for business. I disagree with this. I believe many clients respect the women they pay to see. That explains why so many males hope the experience is mutually pleasurable. These numbers of these males are substantial and they are our greatest allies. Yet, we do not harness their strength in pushing for change, we present a twisted slanted version of reality because we're afraid of losing business. If an inexperienced male was to log on to this website, he would leave with the assumption sex workers all love their job and human trafficking is marginal to non-existent. This illusion you present becomes the reality he sees and how he bases his opinion. You do yourself no favours.

 

[badbadboy]

I agree with the post mentioning that many other jobs are hard on the soul.

I know a few nurses who have become addicted to drugs they originally took to combat long hours, make them more insensitive to the problems on the job, and sometimes to endure pain of previous back injuries. Several nurses I know who are no longer able to work seem to have developed mental illnesses...whether they already had mental illness before, or developed this during, who knows? Nursing is an honoured profession and we only see the bright and heroic side of their lives. Has anyone done a documentary on what they endure, for roughly $32,000 per year?

As to whether prostitution causes drug addiction, I have to wonder if these women you are referring to were in any other job: waitressing, or bar tending, or real estate agent, would they be drug addicts? Probably. The tendency toward drug addiction can be heavily influenced by having a previously existing mental illness, like bi-polar disorder, ADD, and the like.

I certainly have known many waitresses at clubs to snort coke in the bathroom on breaks, and many of these women never quit waitressing; they continue until they are too old to stand. Real estate agents? I know a good many of these and they can party hard. Does being a real estate agent contribute to drug addiction? How about flight attendants? Women who are hired to look pretty and point in different directions of the cabin during the pre-flight demo, and then walk around serving drinks (and pseudo food). I grew up babysitting for many of these women and they were pretty wild, too; even back in the sixties and seventies. Do you know how many flight attendants and real estate agents end up in rehab?

Why is it when we include sex in the qualifications for the job, it suddenly becomes a shameful and demeaning profession? What is wrong with good old sex, when the participant is a consenting adult?

I have met women in the biz who hate what they do, and it shows. They feel ashamed because their sexual history has been filled with abuse before they got into the industry. Drug abuse and self loathing were already in place long before they hit their twenties.
Not all abused women become prostitutes. Some of these women become nurses and real estate agents and flight attendants, (and many other careers); these are the ones who are capable of showing up for a shift; however, many of these abused women turn to prostitution because they can work when they are feeling well and take time off when things get bad. There is a co-relation between abuse and mental illness.

I have met a good many women who love the biz and treat their bodies with respect. They also demand respect from their clients. They squirrel away the money and invest well. They may never leave this business because it is convenient for them, even if they are working a day job. Why is it ok to work as a waitress until you are seventy, but not as a prostitute? Even Xaviera Hollander, who once averred that working as a prostitute past your thirties meant you were some kind of loser, has reversed her stance. (maybe because she is now in her seventies?)

Blowing the money. Is there a difference between a prostitute who fritters her money away, from any other woman (or man) in any other career? When you pay your realtor her percentage are you sure she is not going to party for a weekend and blow a lot of that up her nose? Is it your problem? How about a lawyer? I once had a client who was a lawyer and he lost his home and his family due to a substance abuse problem. Did his career as a criminal defense lawyer contribute to that? Should his clients feel bad for hiring him and paying him the money that allowed him to live that lifestyle?

I enjoyed the thirty odd years I spent working on and off as a prostitute. It was, to me, more like an entertainment industry. I loved dressing up and really enjoyed the interaction. I was never into drugs, or drinking, or even smoking and almost always had another job. I could choose my clients and I chose well. I have to say that during a financial crisis in my life this biz was a saviour; I would never have gotten by without it. During that crisis I met other women in the biz who were going through the same crap. Women who wanted to be with their children and not have to farm them to daycare while they worked a low wage job trying to get back on their feet. I also met young women who did put themselves through university and went on to other careers...you don't hear those stories because they don't take out a page in the Sun to announce it...they just, quietly, leave.

It always surprises me that the very men who are using the services of a prostitute will say, when mentioning a woman who has left the industry: "Good on her" or words to that affect. It is a very good indicator of the state of a man's own sexual/mental health.

Consensual sex is not bad!

In the end, with any job or career, the bottom line is: I have something that will benefit you and you have something that will benefit me.

This is a very good post mimi and is parallel to what I have been saying in my posts.

I have worked in a technical industry for years and have seen many other professionals go down the rabbit hole. Whether its alcohol, coke, pills, meth and heroin too; I have known of some of these people getting on the wrong side of the slippery slope.

Nurses these days can make $75K is the only correction I would make to your post. Vancouver Coastal used to publish who the highest paid people were in the region. One was a nurse who worked casual at three different hospitals and pulled in over $100K mainly by working nights at one hospital and doing day shifts at the others. This person was found to be taking prescription drugs while on duty and was suspended pending a drug rehab program.

I also know a CEO who threw it all away making significant $ seven figures but got in the the wrong crowd (gang related, the cool factor) and later became addicted to heroin. Last I heard was he was renting in his brother's basement since his wife divorced him.

One theme I have picked up from the SP's who have commented in this thread is the importance of having a civilian job in addition to escorting. A real day job that you can openly talk about with your friends and family. If escorting is your only source of income and you have not let your friends and family about your profession; your circle of friends becomes rather small and consists of other SP's, clients etc. It can be isolating if you are unable to openly talk about your life with friends and family.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

One theme I have picked up from the SP's who have commented in this thread is the importance of having a civilian job in addition to escorting. A real day job that you can openly talk about with your friends and family. If escorting is your only source of income and you have not let your friends and family about your profession; your circle of friends becomes rather small and consists of other SP's, clients etc. It can be isolating if you are unable to openly talk about your life with friends and family.

This is a good point, due to our societal expectations, and the double standards that exist in regards to sex.

 

[susi]

east detroit@Susi

We're all aware of how you've committed your time & effort to make the sex trade a safer place for all our sisters. But exactly what gives you the right to make a statement about levels of human trafficking in this trade?

i have studied the research extensively, work with SWAN(indoor asian support worker support service) have met with delegations of sex workers from burma,thailand and korea who came here to beg people to stop contributing to the anti trafficking campaigns, have worked with GAATW- the world authority on this issue and finally was part of the group who contracted the report for vpd on trafficking and the olympic games...in short, i have had to become an expert to fight raids based on this kind of rhetoric( the origonal research quoted)

Are you employed by Interpol, the FBI, CSIS or the RCMP? Exactly how do you substantiate your claims about human trafficking being an insignificant part of the sex trade? Where do you get your information? I suspect you feel that because you're an individual with a lengthy history in the sex industry you feel that you have some understanding of human trafficking.

i have actually done training for the RCMP, border services, the vpd, victims services and even revenue canada so no, while i am not a member of these agencies, i do interact with them all the time. i told you were i get my information, form the foremost experts in the world and from the workers themselves.

It's quite obviously that the majority of women working the street corner are not there by choice.

why? because you say so? many of the workers outside prefer to not have all the costs associated with working for an agency or working from home. they say that they are free to do as they please, work or not work....you are not qualified to speak for workers on the street. yes, the experience a higher level of risk outside but for some they prefer it to being dependant on an agency or trying to field calls from clients, working from home etc.

And the women who work in massage parlours? Language barriers aside, why is their so little input from them on sex forums?
they cannot read and write english....and are too busy posting ads to take a break and post here....
What information do you base your assumptions on?

i told you already, they are not assumptions, i am basing my comments on facts, from the workers themselves and from the GAATW reports as well as from my own projects like trade secrets which engaged workers of south asian origin...

It's often stated that these women made the decision to choose to come to Canada. Did they or was that decision actually a choice made for self preservation?

why do you work? for food/ self preservation? everyone works for self preservation...many migrant workers come to canada to work as sex workers, domestic care givers, construction workers...are they trafficking victims too?

Like how when someone in organized crime puts a gun to your temple and says make a decision or else. why do you assume that workers wouldn't choose to work at sex work in canada? they make way more money and can afford to send more to their families at home....? why do you have to believe there's a gun to their heads?

If these women in massage parlours have so much control of their lives, why do none of them venture out on their own?because its alot of work to run your own show, ads, answering calls, maitaining an incall. this also puts them at higher risk for notice by border services and deportation. if they work for someone else, they are far more discreet and invisible to those who would arrest and deport them

You don't need to be able to speak English to think "Why don't I just do this for myself and keep all the money for me". yes but you need to speak and write english to run your own show. how otherwise will you post your ads? some women like the commaradarie of working together as well you know. its safer as well.

And what about the upscale escorts who work independently? We hear how great this world is yet some of these women have to change their working names because they have serious issues with stalkers?

and no non sex working woman or man have ever had to change their names or move to escape a stalker or abuser.....?

Why don't you just come out and admit it but much of what is said is more about marketing than it is about reality?

Finally Susi, if the sex trade is so grand and wonderful for all these women, why do you need a police liaison?

because we are considered criminals and therefore less than human by the police. have you read any of the material related to the missing women's commission? bias and discrimination. they treat us like shit and so we do not trust them, do not report violence we experience and serial murders get away with it. we need a liaison officer to try to help to rebuild trust in police and hold people who abuse us accountable.

I know people from varying professions, none of them need a police liaison. their profession does not make them a criminal...does it? do the police violate their rights with complacency? no

The fact is the sex trade at all levels is a high risk lifestyle, especially for newcomers.

what are you basing this assumption on? are you an rcmp, vpd, border services, fbi officer? are you an expert? what research have you done?

There are no courses on how to be a sex trade worker. There is no apprenticeship where a junior woman works with a more senior woman on how to file taxes, how to screen calls, how to do whatever. For the most part they're left to their own devices to learn on the job.

bull shit, yes they do...what do you know of how we get trained or how this works? we have written in depth training mannual and previous to that there was an unofficial word of mouth training that has existedin our culture for eons....

Even the mafia trains its own. as do we, you simply have no idea how we live.

In the sex trade there is this misguided belief that if the truth came out that it might scare away some of the clients and therefore be bad for business.my reputation speaks for itself. i don't lie or believe that the "truth" will be bad for business. i simply want to balance perspectives and combat the misinformation campaigns which have caused so much harm and cost so many lives.
I disagree with this. I believe many clients respect the women they pay to see. That explains why so many males hope the experience is mutually pleasurable. These numbers of these males are substantial and they are our greatest allies. Yet, we do not harness their strength in pushing for change, we present a twisted slanted version of reality because we're afraid of losing business.

when have i ever done this? i present the facts, as they are known. i do not sugar coat. you need to do some reading on thsi and stop buying into the abolitionist lies, yes lies. the origional research quoted is so unethical, there has been a complaint launched against the research to have her professional accreditation removed.

If an inexperienced male was to log on to this website, he would leave with the assumption sex workers all love their job and human trafficking is marginal to non-existent. This illusion you present becomes the reality he sees and how he bases his opinion. You do yourself no favours.

dude, get a grip and recognize hate speech when you hear it. if we were to say the things we say about sex workers about any other group would it be cool? all jews have been abused by their parents and are so victimized they don't know what good for them. all black people are money hungry disease spreading home wreckers, all south asian people are suseptible to being abused so we must criminalize them and deny them access to supports...

where the hell is your head at? do you think i make these comments lightly or that i am some fly by night know nothing who simply posts to hear my own opinions? give me a break. educate yourself son. it would along way to informing your opinions on all this.

also, i don't appreciate the implication that i somehow want to "protect" or promote the sex industry so that business won't suffer. i make nothing for doing all of this, i gain nothing. i hope that newbie's to this site will understnad the truth of our industry and what to do shoudl they witness human trafficking or the abuse of any person.

 

[HankQuinlan]

@Susi

We're all aware of how you've committed your time & effort to make the sex trade a safer place for all our sisters. But exactly what gives you the right to make a statement about levels of human trafficking in this trade?

.......blah blah..... You do yourself no favours.

Do some research and/or give your head a shake before coming on this board and questioning the knowledge and integrity of the most respected advocate of sex workers' rights in this city (and probably the country). Your assumptions are typical of what she has to deal with continuously.

 

[mimi]

Suzi, that post should be printed, framed and hung on the wall. It is a terrific illustration of the ignorant assumptions of people who have no idea how the sex trade works. Your responses are intelligent and succinct.

I was also a virgin until 19 and began in the biz shortly thereafter. No history of abuse, sexual or drug, and in full control of my independent will. I was trained by a caring Madame and my early experiences were all positive.

Why did I choose to be an escort? My career had not taken off and I was quite strapped for cash; I was also adventuresome and wanted a thrill; very typical of young people.

The poster fails to understand the situation of women in third world countries and the caste systems that govern their lives. Why don't they go to school and become CEOs of companies, all of them? What barriers do they face trying to get decent wages?

They come to this country and make lots of money; they save enough for a substantial dowry; they go home, get some cosmetic surgery and then barter for a good husband. They cannot do this job in their own small town because it would bring disgrace on their family. However, by arriving home, with money, from Canada and acquiring a good husband, they elevate their families finances in a way that Unicef could never do.

To say that each and every worker has this success is an overstatement. Individual will, and luck, preside over every persons goals.

History shows that when societies crumble under pressures of war and famine women routinely take to the sex trade to provide for their families. When the economy slows some of the first people to struggle are the single mothers. The number of sex trade workers increases. When stability returns and jobs are more plentiful (and wages are decent) the numbers go down, yet, there are always a certain number of women for whom this business will always be their primary income. So, there is a smaller number of women who are continually in the picture.

These days many women do not go through agencies, but begin as Independents, however, there are many support groups online that help Independents network, share experiences and give tips on how to build and maintain a good business, not to mention how to license and file income taxes.

That is something the above poster does not understand. Many sex workers are not isolated, they have friends within the industry. I have rarely met a woman who did not know at least two other women who were in her line of work.

Sex trafficking does happen. It is a shameful crime. No woman should be forced to be in this business against her will. The right to choose what we do with our bodies should always remain in our power. If we choose this line of work we should not be abused, degraded and marginalized.

 

[CJ Tylers]

Pimping and forced servitude are criminal. Prostitution in and of itself? I can't see how placing that in a criminal category does anything other than put the people involved in harms way.

 

[AA_Train]

ASSUMING one classifies prostitution as a crime. Done in the proper way, it is a business transaction and as long as both parties are satisfied with what was given to them, then yes it is a victimless "crime." That being said, in anything where there is a power dynamic involved, there is always the potential for one person to exploit the other and take advantage of the weaker party's situation. The myth perpetuated is that it is always the sex trade worker that is being exploited but such exploitation can work both ways eg a sex trade worker blackmailing a client to extort money out of them. When exploitation exists, then one can establish a perpetrator and a victim, but that can only be determined case by case.

 

[PlayfulAlex]

I think that this thread started out on the wrong note, referring to the business as 'criminal' in the first place. Had the OP questioned whether or not his participation had ever hurt someone, things might have taken a different tone as the discussion unfolded.

Asking whether or not this is a victimless activity changes the flavour of the inquiry. In which case, the obvious answer would have been that, to some, this work is empowering and life-affirming, while to others, this work is debilitating and soul-sucking. There can never be one answer to this discussion.

I think some important issues have been addressed in the thread, and experienced players have had their say. But let's also not forget that there are two sides to every transaction, and that every gentleman is looking for a different level of participation. So, once again, there just isn't one right answer to the level of responsibility that any one client should feel towards the direction that the life of any SP may have taken.

People often want to turn things into a clear-cut discussion, while this is a decidedly complex topic...

 

[yazoo]

There is a big difference though. It is quite possible - and easy - to provide and consume sexual services without breaking any laws. The same cannot be said about drugs.

 

[Tugela]

why do you work? for food/ self preservation? everyone works for self preservation...many migrant workers come to canada to work as sex workers, domestic care givers, construction workers...are they trafficking victims too?

If someone arranges for them to come here illegally or to work under false pretences, then yes, they are. That is what trafficking is.

 

[Tugela]

Suzi, that post should be printed, framed and hung on the wall. It is a terrific illustration of the ignorant assumptions of people who have no idea how the sex trade works. Your responses are intelligent and succinct.

I don't know about that, it is full of emotive shrill language, and most people associate that sort of thing with activist views that are generally not objective. If you took a random person and showed them that exchange, they would assume that the person she is talking to is the rational one as a result. The moral is that in your rebuttal to an argument you should always present the appearance of being calm, rational and reasonable. If you don't, a third party would assume that you don't really have an argument and have to rely on emotion and intimidation to win your point rather than factual information.

She may be an advocate for the workers, but that does not mean she is right or unbiased.

 

[Aleister Crowley]

Pussies in front of a hard cock is the same as a loaded gun.... i mean the pussy is the loaded gun.
they hold us hostage or just straight up robbery ,
when my cock is hard and i want to shoot the goo , and pussy sticks a gun in my face , out cums my wallet and the robbery happens.
fukking rights its a crime with a victim.
but what else could i have done.... I love it

if they didn't have pussies there would be a bounty on them.

 

[yazoo]

If I guessed that you are one that condemns pot while seeking sex for money, would I be correct Sir?

You would be incorrect. I believe that there is probably nobody in the country that agrees with every law that is on the books. However as part of the social contract we all agree to 'try' to abide by the laws of the land, even if we disagree with them, and work towards changing the ones that we do not like.

I disagree with our current drug laws, not because I wish to consume, but because I think that tax dollars spent on police, lawyers, courts and prisons to reduce drug use could be better spent elsewhere.

Not true Sir. Some who consume drugs have a medical license to both consume and even grow their own.
We have no licensing for sex AFAIK

There is licensing. You just have to look at Canada's Department of Justice website. And the CRA Industry code for escort services is 812900

Yes, many 'illegal' drugs do have medicinal useage. Many hospitals stock liquid cocaine for nasal surgery. Heroin has been used as a painkiller for terminal cancer.

I think that I agree with your intention - its just your logic is off. If an SP works alone, does not communicate in public, licenses her business, and pays taxes then she has done absolutely nothing wrong. There is a route to providing sexual services and breaking no laws. Even if she fails to pay taxes or license properly, she still is not 'criminal' as she hasn't broken the criminal code. Contrast that with say non-medical use of Schedule 1 drugs. There is no way to purchase or possess them legally - other than through a special dispensation - say for research.

As far as the slippery slope argument - I think that there is plenty of literature supporting the thesis that there is a progression from 'gateway' drugs to more serious ones. Can you point me to some literature supporting your supposition that sex with my favourite cutiepie is going to make me a murderer one day?

Or, you could just believe as I do that we are all accountable for our own actions and just live an let live if it doesn’t hurt anyone.

I agree with you - I really do. I just disagree with the inaccurate characterization of 'criminal'.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

But as we are being sticky about this, can you show me a Federal website that states it is ok and legal for a member of one sex to pay a member of the other sex to have sexual intercourse?

the link follows. this is the only thing to read if you are looking for what is legal and what is illegal

it's a heavy read. pay attention to Part VII and to a certain extent Part V

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/FullText.html#h-57

 

[PlayfulAlex]

Wow, maybe I'm wrong then, if so, I am truly surprised.
I've read about recent cases before the supreme court of Canada regarding sex workers (if it was legal, I see no need for lawsuits) and also that a fellow pooner mentioned in his worst pooning story that he was involved in a sting (also alluding to the hobby being illegal).
I'm not sure why there would be stings or lawsuits if the art was legal?

I'm curious if your license said "penis + vagina = ok" or something vague like "erotic services" and the interpretation of the law was left up to how much the cop liked you or how much attitude he received?

Anyway, thanks for your comment, I’ll maybe dig a little more and perhaps have less hesitation and fear with my next pooning adventure.

"Vancouver licenses all types of occupations, including: lawyers, health care professionals, buskers, social escorts and home-based professionals like seamstresses."

http://www.csdcsystems.com/node/408

 

[rockinbods35]

I think one thing we can all agree upon when it comes to victims of prostitution are those escorts than find themselves pimped.

I choose not to support girls I "know" are pimped because obviously that money is not going to the girl but rather to the pimp. I put the word "know" in quotes because I am sure I have seen some girls I did not know where pimped in the past or may have met some recently.

I would assume most girls would not choose to advertise they are pimped because of the obvious negative associations we attribute to pimps. I personally view them as the scum of the earth..those preying upon the vulnerability of women..sometimes in bad situations (debt, drug abuse, etc) and offering to "help". The help comes with a price...and is tantamount to slavery. Threats, intimidation, physical abuse..all can be employed by the pimp to keep the girl in line. The question is apart from not being patrons of such girls...is there anything we can as consumers do to push pimps out?

Is legalization of prostitution the only way to get pimps to exit the picture? It just makes me mad to know that there are scum bags out there that abuse, threaten, intimidate and sometimes (murder) the girls that "work" for them because they view them as disposable. I don't care who you are, what you have done in life...NO ONE deserves to be treated like a piece of garbage and tossed aside as so much trash when no longer useful!!

Also, are there tell tale signs a girl is being pimped? Perhaps the ladies could let us in on things we should be looking for...warning signs if you will that let us know when an SP we are seeing is being pimped.

 

[vancity_cowboy]

Is legalization of prostitution the only way to get pimps to exit the picture?

i don't think so and i'll further answer your question with some of my own

1) is marriage not legal?
2) do some husbands not abuse their wives?

there will always be low-lifes living off the avails, legal or not

 

[rockinbods35]

So, my question, is, what's going on here? You come across to me, as someone wanting to atone for past sins. What's with the pimps? These women also take risks with maladjusted clients. Guys who won't take no for an answer. Bad dates. What's up with this posting? What's the real reason you started this topic. And it isn't your concern about pimps. Nobody likes pimps.

You can't change the world. You can change the world around you. Unless I'm going to pull a Liam Neeson and start taking out pimps, the only thing I can really do is act in a manner I can live with. At the end of the day, I have to look at myself in the mirror and ask, did I do the right thing, at least, in my own mind. I'd rather be respected than liked. My father was well liked. I knew the truth, however, he was pure filth. He wasn't a pimp, but he sure acted like one.[/QUOTE]

No I am not looking to atone for past sins. I merely have come across more and more of the dark side of this industry the longer I have been in this hobby. I have seen some people that I liked fall by the wayside and others get swallowed up by drugs, etc. Can I save them? No...should I try?...not sure it's my place..nor do I have the resources or the energy to do so.

I am merely trying to spark discussion and debate on a subject which we are intimately familiar...if you think I have done some horrible things in the past and am trying to atone for them through this discussion then that is your perogative. You can think what you want to.

I just dont like what I see the longer I am involved in this hobby..and I don't think we should stick our heads in the sand and ignore the issue.

You are correct a working girl is equally at risk from bad clients as she is from pimps, and I understand that pimps can sometimes afford protection from bad clients (perhaps why some have them).

It's just shocking to see a girl you were a client of show up with a black eye, cuts on her body, and various other bruises and have it explained as "I fell down. I was drunk and fell down some stairs" etc. Could that be true? Maybe, I am just not that naiive...maybe it was a bad client, or maybe it was a pimp. I really don't know.

I am just voicing my concerns and displeasure of the current state of affairs, if you want to label my motives for doing so as nefarious or suspect, then so be it.

 

[Pillowtalk]

Wow, maybe I'm wrong then, if so, I am truly surprised.
I've read about recent cases before the supreme court of Canada regarding sex workers (if it was legal, I see no need for lawsuits) and also that a fellow pooner mentioned in his worst pooning story that he was involved in a sting (also alluding to the hobby being illegal).
I'm not sure why there would be stings or lawsuits if the art was legal?

I'm curious if your license said "penis + vagina = ok" or something vague like "erotic services" and the interpretation of the law was left up to how much the cop liked you or how much attitude he received?

Anyway, thanks for your comment, I’ll maybe dig a little more and perhaps have less hesitation and fear with my next pooning adventure.

I don't know why, but it seems like it is necessary to run people thru the laws about prostitution every 3 to 4 months, and still I hear the same misinformation and misleading confusing posts.

Prostitution itself is defined as the exchange of $ for sexual services, and even Wikipedia will tell you that this is legal in Canada. Period. End of story. NO argument or debates about that please.

There are a few laws associated with where and how sps can work. Not unlike any other kind of laws that regulate where and how other people, including nurses probably, can work. In Ontario it is those laws that were challenged, as impediments to worker safety. The guy who claimed to have been in a sting, i thought that whole story was discredited wasn't it? Unless he was picking up an SW, or went to a micro that got raided, it is highly unlikely.

NO, advertising on ers or perb or any other adult entertainment venue is not considered 'public communication". In the laws, public communication for the purpose of solicitation is CLEARLY outlined to be outside and with no expectation of privacy. Placing an ad is not the same as having a public discussion of rates and services in a cafe, or on a street corner. You can legally have a phone conversation about all of this. It is unlikely that if all that is legal, that the activity itself would be illegal don't you think?

Some people think that the licenses are about actual sex work, but city licenses can't actually be sold for actual sex work as that might break the law called 'living off the avails" which basically says that sps can legally make money from prostitution, but no one else can profit for them making money from sex work. The licenses are for social escorts. Escort licenses are the city's way around that, and at the same time they know what is really being done, but they want to control how it is being done and by who. With licenses, they can do easy age checks. In Edmonton, the licenses are required for those who work in massage parlours.


http://www.bastionlaw.ca/-prostitution.asp

Prostitution is Legal in Canada

In general, prostitution is not illegal in Canada. Neither the seller of sex for money, not the buyer of sexual services, commits any crime by doing so (one might be forgiven for concluding that the police believe otherwise).

In particular, sex trade workers who conduct their business as "escorts", offering arranged private meetings with clients in homes or hotel rooms, are unlikely to be committing any offence by doing so, and their clients are likewise fairly secure against prosecution. Similarly, communications between clients and escort agencies, arranging for such private meetings, are unlikely to lead to difficulties with the law (if an escort or an escort agency does run into legal problems, it is often a matter of bylaw infractions, such as carrying on trade without a business licence, or some such thing).

What is illegal is procuring, soliciting in public, under-age prostitution, living on the "avails" of an under-age prostitute, and offences connected with "common bawdy houses" (brothels).

I don't know, it is fairly clear, and really really easy to find the laws and information online