The Porn Dude

Of Tortures and Beatings in Iraq

RubADub

New member
May 26, 2003
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Bush in real trouble.

Bush Jr. looks in big public relations trouble, if those stupid soldiers actually videotaped themselves raping and murdering prisoners. Sickos.
 

brianwarner

Banned
Jul 20, 2003
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Apparently there are more photos and videos to come. Some prisoners were forced to perform oral sex on each other. From a Muslim point of view, the only just punishment for these criminal perpetrators is death.
 

brianwarner

Banned
Jul 20, 2003
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The true jurisidiction for these crimes is in Iraq, even if you think the prison is American territory. So the punishment should be Islamic punishment, just as they want to try the 911 hijackers in America. The "reprimands" and "dismissals from service" is not the correct justice here. Let Islamic law choose the appropriate punishment. This is the Iraqi point of view.
 

MoeTheBartender

I serve DUFF BEER only!
Mar 20, 2004
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Moe's Tavern - Springfield
From CNN...

"Appearing on CNN's "American Morning," an attorney for Pfc. Lynndie England said they were "staged" by intelligence officials who were running Abu Ghraib at the time.

England was photographed holding a what appears to be a leash attached to the neck of a naked Iraqi prisoner

"They are psychological operations photos," said attorney Giorgio Ra'Shadd. "Those were instructed and the ones that were not specifically instructed were inferred by the civilian intelligence people who took control."

Another attorney for England, Rose Mary Zapor, said the photo, "is not a picture of our client abusing a prisoner in any way.'"

Last week, the military brought four counts against England.

The charges include committing an indecent act and assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions.

England, who has returned from Iraq and is now stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, is five months pregnant. "

Psychological Operations Photos?! - What do you think folks?
 

HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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I am speechless, HFS. Do you get all of your information from Fox News and American talk radio? America has "stepped up to the plate" several times in history -- World War II (several years late, but still welcome), Serbia (including brutal aerial assaults on Belgrade's population), Korea (with the support of the United Nations) and Somalia (with an ignominious retreat after their first defeat). EVERY other time, it has been in the interests of American investors and capitalists, NOT for "freedom and democracy". A much abbreviated list:
- Annexation of the American continent from the native inhabitants, and simultaneous annexation of large portions from Mexico (who had no greater right to those lands than the Americans, really, except that they stole it from the natives first)
- The capture, torture and slavery of innocent Africans
- Dozens of military interventions and occupations of Latin American countries (Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Panama, Dominican Republic, etc. etc.) throughout the last two centuries, often with brutal suppression of the locals, usually in defense of United Fruit or other economic interests.
- Followed by military support and training for brutal dictators and military governments in those and other countries in Latin America and elsewhere in the world --- only one example that bit them in the ass later was the coup against Mossedegh in Iran and his replacement by the tame Shah.
- The brutal wars fought over decades to gain control of The Philippines (ceded to them after a disgraceful war picked with Spain to appeal to American voters)
- The military forcing of Japan to accept international trade.
- The staging of a coup and subsequent annexation of the Kingdom of Hawaii (at the behest of sugar planters)
- Vietnam. ..and the resulting destruction of the societies in Cambodia and Laos.
- The overthrow of democratically elected governments who disagreed with American policies (Chile and Nicaragua are only two recent examples)

The current arrogance and brutality on display is not an anomaly. It is a continuation of history. The four examples quoted above are the only ones that I can think of where Americans acted militarily in support of an ideal of any kind. Their current foreign policy has been dreamed up by ignorant children, who have no respect for human life and dignity....the difference is that the profits of Haliburton are now the goal, not those of United Fruit.

And you really wonder why the rest of the world don't greet American soldiers with open arms and flowers?
 
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HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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Oh yes...and another thing. The scale of the torture is a direct result of the specific policy of denial of any legal or human rights --- under US courts, the Geneva Convention or any other body --- declared by the administration. If there is that much stuff on photos and videos, what small percentage of the total of such actions do they probably represent? The military will scapegoat the front-line idiot children caught on tape and in photos --- but the responsiblity lies way up the system, and was obviously condoned in some fashion by the system in place.

North Americans are NOT better than other people in the world--despite what sniggering assholes like Dennis Miller would have us think. Every other person in the world has dreams and aspirations not so different from ours. The murder of 3000 or so Americans (and many others) in the world trade center is NOT a justification for the slaughter of many times that number of innocent people in Afghanistan, Iraq, or anywhere else. "Collateral damage" is not a consolation to a grieving relative. Here's an analogy --- say a brutal killer is holed up in a shopping mall in Chicago, holding hundreds of people hostage and shooting a few whenever a demand is not met. According to the rules of "The War on Terrorism," the answer would be to blow up the building. We got the guy, eh? That'll teach him.
 

pizzapest

Banned
May 7, 2004
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Anyone know where I can get the full beheading video. Perhaps anyone know the address of this so called "islamic militant" site?
 

brianwarner

Banned
Jul 20, 2003
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Hank, thanks for the expository. People need to know, instead of just swallowing the distortions put out by the Americans and their mass media.

When you declare yourself the world's policeman, you better have very very clean credentials and true, purely good intentions. The world is not as naive as the American public is, we know why they started the war. Iraqis know too. 1000 heads that roll is hardly equal to the price paid by those Iraqi innocents already lost.
 

Finegan

Short member
May 8, 2004
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The Tickle Trunk
Hank - great list...

Military Intelligence...The Oxymoron lives on...

Who the hell thought of the bright idea to take pictures of torturing prisoners? Further more if these military "little people" are "just taking orders from above" Whay are they smiling and giving the good ole "thumbs up" in the photos?

Thank God for the honest folks like the guy who turned over the CD of the photos and video to the chain of command.
 

pizzapest

Banned
May 7, 2004
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JackFrost said:
I heard about it from a friend..and had to see it

Its truly sickening, and brutal..words cannot describe it. This is sick..

Beheading Video
Sorry I asked.


But thanks for the link.
 

lenharper

Member
Jan 15, 2004
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I'd have to agree with the points that Jodie and Hank made. this is not a war about "stepping up to the plate" -- the time to do that was back during Gulf War One -- first blood. But instead of doing that, GB1 decided to sell the Kurds down the river.

GB2 has proven no link between Osama and Hussein (at least no link any stronger than the one Hussein has had with previous american administrations -- back when he was our buddy).

Also there has been no concrete evidence of WMD past what any relatively modernized society holds.

So the only thing he had left was the "moral high ground" which the events of the last few weeks have seriously eroded.

In my humble opinion the major problem with America's rush to war was the complete lack of planning and inherent fundamental zealotry that existed in the inner circle of the white house.

It appears now the GB2's administration sincerely beleived that they would be welcomed by iraqi citizenry with open arms despite the fact that they had bombed the shit out of bagdad scant years before.

They beleived (as do many Americans) that other countries aspire toward their lifestyle -- while travelling in Europe, post 9-11, the few Americans I met paid me what for them was the ultimate compliment -- "we Americans like you Canadians, we think of you as the 51st state" with no awareness that a citizen of a soveriegn country could find that offensive.

It is also painfully clear now that" post victory" planning was left solely in the hands of Rumstead and the defense department instead of Powell and the state department. In fact, state department plans for transition have been completely ignored and now we sit in this mess.

the sad thing now is that the best way to get out of Iraq is to re-elect the Republicans who will cut and run as soon as they can while the Democrats will end up keeping American soldiers there because they will have a sense of moral obligation.

I also feel that the man who could unseat GB2 right now is colin Powell. I beleive if he resigned and spoke out about George bush's inner circle -- the "blind leading the deaf" -- americans may be embarassed enough about the quality of the man they elected leader to turf him out of office.
 

Makhno

Recidivist
Nov 11, 2003
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Beyond the Pale
This video is truly numbing. It's savage barbarity really makes you appreciate the civility of the part of the world we live in.

Words are utterly inadequate here. Its simply a close up look directly into the heart of the Beast. A front row seat to murder. A gripping testament to man's inhumanity to man. And all in the name of "Allah" and his "peaceful religion". Yeah, right. “Allahu Akbar!” indeed.

The animals posted the video on some jihad website in Iraq with a typical rabid foaming at the mouth proclamation which ends with this:
And you see the slaughter, your fighting brothers suspend the head of this unbeliever on one of Baghdad bridges so that they teach a lesson to others from the infidels and serves as a witness to the honour of the Muslims
Honour?
 

brianwarner

Banned
Jul 20, 2003
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The execution was done in the same style as the execution of animals according to Islamic ritual when an animal is executed for meat. The Muslims and Jews have similar traditions, and it is what is called "kosher" meat (jewish) or "halal" (arabic). The act is done in as humane a way as possible given that it must be an execution. The act must be done with a knife.

The victim was clothed, treated with as little indignity as possible, and his death was as short as possible. The terrorists shouted "God is Great" to drown out the cries of the victim, so as to pronounce that this work was in the name of Allah who protects the Arabic people and the sound of the praise must be louder than that of the American. The beheading and subsequent raising of the severed head is a symbolic gesture. They did not spit on the corpse. They did not feed it to dogs. They returned it to the Americans for burial in a bag for them that was easy to find - just as by Islamic law a body must be buried.

Compare this to the assaults by Americans on Iraqis. Though a number of them were trivial (ie: panties on heads), they were done to show a) contempt for the victims as human beings, b) done completely without higher purpose, c) done with glee as evidenced by the smiles on the faces of the perpetrators, and with their "thumbs up" gestures, d) done with sexual gratification, e) done for self-power. The prisoners were attacked by dogs even while naked and completely tied up. Some women were raped. Some men were forced to perform oral sex on each other.

A beheading is a horrible act. But that is 1 beheading, and even if you included the other mutilations, is still a handful compared to the number of innocent Iraqis murdered by bombs, guns, tanks, and the prisoners who had their dignity taken from them.

The terrorists are evil. But so are the Americans, who claim that they are bringing peach and freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people - when in fact, it is cheap oil and their own security that is their #1 goal. The Americans cloak themselves in garments of Good and proclaim their virtue while the hidden intention is greed and power over others.

The beheading should not be judged by those who can not claim any understanding of Muslim culture.
 

Makhno

Recidivist
Nov 11, 2003
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Beyond the Pale
brianwarner said:
The beheading should not be judged by those who can not claim any understanding of Muslim culture.
My deepest apologies, Brainwarmer. I didn't realize that Berg's killing was such a deeply sensitive and reverent act, steeped in ancient tradition and carried out with the greatest of respect and humilty and in the most humane manner.

With all due respect, what a crock! The biggest problem with your analysis is that Nick Berg was not an "animal" to be executed for meat "according to Islamic ritual". He was a human being. His killing at the hands of the Islamic fundamentalists was not a "humane" act in any but the most psychotic of meanings. It was a cold blooded brutal animalistic killing. Nothing more.

You do not have to be have ANY understanding of Islamic culture to understand this brutal act for what it is. Just plain MURDER. The world can and should judge these murderers, regardless of whether they "understand muslim culture", and proclaim them for what they are. Amoral killers.

No amount of reference to Islamic "culture" or Islamic religious "principles" can ever justify this kind of behaviour.

Don't get me wrong. I do not justify Bush's actions in Iraq either. Brutality in the name of any "god" is ultimately repulsive and unjustifiable.

But don't insult us by lecturing us on the humanity and sensitivity of this Islamic butchery. :mad:
 

travel guy

New member
Apr 10, 2004
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Brainwarmer - Humane? This was horrific and disturbing. I hardly think they were acting in a humane manner when stating to the camera that American women can look forward to their loved ones in Iraq being slaughtered in the same manner unless their demands are met. It was also my understanding that the body was not turned over to Americans, but "located" by them. I was under the impression(via one of the many translations)that the kid's head was to be hung from a bridge. NOTHING humane about this and I can only imagine the agony the kids family is going through due to this "humane" act. One thing to suffer through the death of a loved one - guite another to have this putrid act of hatred video taped and shown to the world. I doubt that they'll ever recover from this.....humane....not even close.

Though we all know how wrong it was of the American soldiers to treat the Iraqi captives as they have, it does in fact pale in comparison to the "humane" act video taped by these terrorists.
Perhaps given the choice, Iraqi captives would have opted for the humane treatment seen on the tape in question rather than the wrongful treatment they have endured - but I DOUBT IT. I'm sure that the humanity displayed in the video is the sort that they'd like to avoid.

Sorrow - "odd" how this beheading shakes the western world? Thank God that it does. There was an Iraqi woman on CNN stating that such images simply aren't shocking when shown in Iraq.....heaven help anyone who could just shrug such brutality off and carry on as though nothing's new.
 

nixnix

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Mar 8, 2004
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now i can't sleep

that is the most horrifying thing i have ever seen in my entire life. and i only watched 15 seconds of it
 

imagination

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Jan 3, 2004
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it's disgraceful, like a while ago when the mutilated body parts were paraded and hung on a bridge and the many who cheered at the sight of it...
 

travel guy

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Apr 10, 2004
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that is the most horrifying thing i have ever seen in my entire life. and i only watched 15 seconds of it
Understandalbe. Must be all that humanity that brainwarmer mentions. I guess you're meant to start slow - save baby seals or something, then slowly work your way up to the humane act of slaughering a human.
 

HankQuinlan

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Sep 7, 2002
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It shakes the Western world because it is "them" doing it to "us." It seems more brutal because we can identify with the poor white guy, but the motivations of the "others" are incomprehensible.

But they are not -- the prison tortures are just another proof that people from all cultures are capable of horrendous acts given the right circumstances. Fear, revenge, mistrust, blind faith, whatever.

Americans committed cold-blooded massacres in Vietnam. Serbs, Croats and whoever did the same in the last decade. Tutsis and Hutus. Cambodia. Each of the bloody tyrants of history had many, many bloody-handed followers to carry out their bidding, motivated by something.

If the circumstances were reversed and we were invaded by a jack-booted Arab occupation force (even if they had done us a similar favour and disposed of some version of a hated dictator we could well have in future) who treated us with the distain and arrogance due to infidels, I can well imagine some patriots getting together and stringing up any Arab "support person" they managed to capture. What would be the difference (except that they would be the "terrorists")?
 

nixnix

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Mar 8, 2004
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travel guy said:
Understandalbe. Must be all that humanity that brainwarmer mentions. I guess you're meant to start slow - save baby seals or something, then slowly work your way up to the humane act of slaughering a human.
i've seen some sick shit in my life....and this one tops the cake.

i have no idea what that guy is talking about. humane my ass. i've studied a bit of islam and there is nothing that says THIS is humane. to that guy who said that...if mr. berg was your son?...
 
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