Is Canada a Democracy? I Doubt...

[storm rider]

If we had proportional representation people would vote differently.
NDP/Green would be disaster.

I think people would vote the same but you can be sure of one thing.The Green party would make absolutely sure they had a candidate in every riding across the country no matter the cost.Yes an NDP/Green coalition government would be a total disaster for Canada.The whacked out "save the earth" policies of such a government would have the energy industry running out of the country faster than you can imagine.It would be 1000 times worse than when Trudeau brought in the NEP.Nothing but economic ruin from coast to coast.Anybody that has lived in BC under an NDP government knows only too well how inept they are not to mention corrupt.Combine that with the environmental zealots that comprise the Green party and YIKES is all I can say.

SR

 

[summerbreeze]

Is it some kind of a Canadian thing I didn't know about: any intellectual conversation is perceived as offensive or funny?

"It's really amazing that even people with legal education are so brainwashed in Canada, that they leave comments sounding more like they are high school dropouts... "

its trolling when you pick a highly controversial topic, use a provocative title, then personally insult the people who predictably reply

criticize government??? every person on the planet has a beef with their government...... out of the thousands of things our government does for us its a miracle they don't get more wrong than they do

in the history of the world, we do not have the ability to say definitively one entity is absolutely right and another is wrong so we default to majority so we don't end up killing each other over our differences, it does not mean it is right, it is just what the majority want or we have an elected official who no matter how flawed, was elected by more votes than their opposition or a majority of those who chose to vote

because you don't agree with or understand a statue, does not mean a government is not democratic.....

 

[sdw]

I think people would vote the same but you can be sure of one thing.The Green party would make absolutely sure they had a candidate in every riding across the country no matter the cost.Yes an NDP/Green coalition government would be a total disaster for Canada.The whacked out "save the earth" policies of such a government would have the energy industry running out of the country faster than you can imagine.It would be 1000 times worse than when Trudeau brought in the NEP.Nothing but economic ruin from coast to coast.Anybody that has lived in BC under an NDP government knows only too well how inept they are not to mention corrupt.Combine that with the environmental zealots that comprise the Green party and YIKES is all I can say.

SR

I don't think people would vote the same. Right now, if you don't want what Ontario and BC got when they voted NDP - you have to vote for Susy Liberal or Joe Conservative. If we had Proportional Representation you'd have "Flavors" of each of the parties. So you'd have a choice of Party Lists. The Communists would have a sure to be elected person, The Marxists would have a sure to be elected person, The Anarchists would have a sure to be elected person, etc. Justin Trudeau was quite right to raise the specter of Kellie Leitch - but he didn't mention the specter of Kevin O'Leary as the sure to be elected person representing Dinosaur Business.

Under Proportional Representation, you no longer vote for Joe Conservative in "God's Country" BC - you vote for the Party List for Fundamentalist Christians or the Party List for Barefoot, Beaten and Pregnant. If the party gets 3.25% of the national vote, the top person on their list is elected, if they get 6.50% of the national vote the top two people on their list are elected. Since none of the candidates is going to be able to meet people across the country, the more radical people that the media did articles on are the ones that will be elected.

So, we will have a coalition government with the person from Barefoot, Beaten and Pregnant and the person from Tax 99% of income both as cabinet members. One as minister of family values and the other as minister of finance.

 

[westwoody]

Seats would be redistributed after an election. Voters could lose the member they elected. The replacement might be a fourth place finisher locally.

So how would you like the winner in your riding, that you voted for, being replaced by someone diametrically opposed?

 

[sdw]

Seats would be redistributed after an election. Voters could lose the member they elected. The replacement might be a fourth place finisher locally.

So how would you like the winner in your riding, that you voted for, being replaced by someone diametrically opposed?

The way it works in Germany is that half the seats are directly elected for an area. It's First Past the Post. The other half of the seats are elected by Proportional Representation by Party List. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Germany
The Black side of the ballot is direct election for the area. The Blue side of the ballot is for a national seat by Party List.

The balancing of the vote to achieve a government that represents the % of people that voted for each party is achieved with the Blue side of the ballot.

Of course, this is the same system that elected the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NAZI). People think it can't happen again, but people should read up on the German elections in 1932 and 1933 - after that, until the end of WWII, all other parties were illegal and their known members got to test the extermination machine before the Jews, Homosexuals, Imperfect Children and other "Mud" people experienced real German efficiency.

 

[Warl0ck]

I'm not a lawyer, but Goldhunter is correct in that banning someone from entering the United States is not illegal. As far as sovereign nations go visiting any country is a privilege and not a right. It's not your right to visit North Korea just as it's not your right to visit the United States.

The issue with Trump is he can't rationalize or think about his consequences and how it might affected the USA. Some of the brightest minds in the USA come from countries on the list. You might well toss a Google engineer or worse..a cyber security analyst for the USA because he comes from one of the 7 countries. It's not a way against Muslims, it's a war against Muslim extremists.

 

[sdw]

The way it works in Germany is that half the seats are directly elected for an area. It's First Past the Post. The other half of the seats are elected by Proportional Representation by Party List. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Germany
The Black side of the ballot is direct election for the area. The Blue side of the ballot is for a national seat by Party List.

The balancing of the vote to achieve a government that represents the % of people that voted for each party is achieved with the Blue side of the ballot.

Of course, this is the same system that elected the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NAZI). People think it can't happen again, but people should read up on the German elections in 1932 and 1933 - after that, until the end of WWII, all other parties were illegal and their known members got to test the extermination machine before the Jews, Homosexuals, Imperfect Children and other "Mud" people experienced real German efficiency.

The NPD is the renamed NAZI party and is following the same track as their fore-bearer 1923 - 1932 Once they get Federal Seats, they'll follow the 1932 - 1946 track.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany

 

[Papacito]

its trolling when you pick a highly controversial topic, use a provocative title, then personally insult the people who predictably reply

criticize government??? every person on the planet has a beef with their government...... out of the thousands of things our government does for us its a miracle they don't get more wrong than they do

in the history of the world, we do not have the ability to say definitively one entity is absolutely right and another is wrong so we default to majority so we don't end up killing each other over our differences, it does not mean it is right, it is just what the majority want or we have an elected official who no matter how flawed, was elected by more votes than their opposition or a majority of those who chose to vote

because you don't agree with or understand a statue, does not mean a government is not democratic.....

When it comes to "controversial topic / provocative title" - that's just your perception. I've chosen the topic due to its extremely high importance, and the title simply reflects my stand on this issue. And I don't care if I "insult" anyone by my point of view as long as can back it up with facts. And I bet I can!

So what do we have here? The situation is quite sad: Canada's election, political and (likely) judicial system are all based on unsophisticated fraud. And this situation is not typical at all: I can hardly imagine any other first world country so inherently corrupt as Canada. And we are not talking about corrupt politicians - that's a separate subject. The whole system is inherently corrupt and was definitely not created in good faith initially. And you've gotta be a Canadian in order not to be able to notice that...

Let's look closer into it:

- Elections: the real purpose of FPTP elections is bias towards mainstream parties' candidates: it's always easier for them to get relative majority of votes just because they are "mainstream". Getting absolute majority (50+%) is way more difficult - that's why the second round is necessary if no candidate gets 50+% in the first round. Not mentioning that if you don't get more than 50% of votes, you have no business representing the majority. That's a matter of basic math, not even political opinion. Now technically, if, say, there are 10 candidates in a riding, one gets 12%, 9 others even less than that, the 12% guy will go to Ottawa as an MP to represent his riding for the next 4 years. No second round to determine a true winner! Does it make sense? Well, only for Canadians why probably don't study math at school. In almost any other country in the world this would be considered FRAUD. In Canada it would be just a legitimate way to deprive 88% of voters in that riding of their right to vote.

- Parliament: election fraud continues in the Parliament - the Prime Minister is not directly elected. The most powerful representative of the executive power is "elected" at best in his own tiny riding (see above how), and just because his party gets majority of seats in the Parliament, he becomes the Prime Minister? How democratic is it? Belonging to a political party in the Parliament doesn't mean much anyway - "rats" may "cross the floor" and join their opponents without ANY consequences. Prime Minister represents the whole country: why isn't he elected by the whole country?

But that's just the beginning of the trouble. Shockingly in Canada's Parliament there is no separation of powers (legislative and executive). Prime Minister and cabinet ministers actually sit in the Parliament and VOTE on new laws!!! Inevitable conflict of interests? Inherent corruption? Who cares, we are Canadians, we just don't get it...

And the triumph of the Canadian "democracy" happens when the Prime Minister APPOINTS members of the Senate. Executive power appoints legislators!!!??? The dream of every dictator! Conflict of interests? We are already used to it (see above)... Why Senate can't be elected? No answer. Are you still proud to be Canadian? I'm not.

- Independent Judiciary: considering the above setup, this is our last and only hope. Who else have the power to protect the public from the inherently corrupt state system which doesn't give a shit about it's own constitution (Charter)? Here comes C-36 crafted with impunity by the corrupt government / parliament to knowingly defy the most "sacred' points of the Charter and... NOTHING HAPPENS!!! "Independent Judiciary" is silent. Well, in a few years we may consider the constitutional validity of C-36, and in the meantime you belong in jail, you, perverts, who want to have consensual sex with adults!

IMHO, there is no hope for this country. I fail to see ANY democratic institutions here. There is just a crude illusion of their existence. What a shame...

 

[johnsmit]

I use to beleave in democracy ,buy not any more because democratic principalso canot not exist in a capitalist consumerism society. And when it comes to everyone having a different idea and opinion on what right and how everything should be in their favour ,there realy is no way to please the majority or the minority. .
Both the USA and Canada were set up for Comercial enterprise to thrive not nesisarily for the Democratic rights of the individual or the masses.But more for economic enrichment of some individual over others and nothing has changed in that respect no matter how much rights we gain or how much more democracy the people thinks we need .
Capitalism and democracy do not compliment each other they are to opposing forces.

 

[Warl0ck]

Capitalism and democracy do not compliment each other they are to opposing forces.

Well they can exist John, the problem is this isn't capitalism. It's more a twisted form of mercantilism where the most powerful companies control the economy and the government are nothing but puppets in the system. There are elements of capitalism in the system but they're typically in the world of small business. A couple of liquor stores competing is capitalism. The international breweries they get their beer from are not.

 

[sdw]

Well they can exist John, the problem is this isn't capitalism. It's more a twisted form of mercantilism where the most powerful companies control the economy and the government are nothing but puppets in the system. There are elements of capitalism in the system but they're typically in the world of small business. A couple of liquor stores competing is capitalism. The international breweries they get their beer from are not.

Since 1974, Canada has had the Election Expenses Act, which governs how much people may donate to a Federal Political Party and how much a Federal Political Party may spend. Those who follow the news will remember that the Conservative Party had to pay a $520,000 fine for their use of funds for mailings. Conservative Dean Del Mastro was charged under the Election Expenses act because he tried to hide the fact that he gave himself $20,000. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...mastro-charged-under-the-canada-elections-act Companies and Unions used to be able to give very substantial amounts of money to Political Parties. They no longer can. The limit is $1200 per individual, company or union.
The NDP is still in the courts on their gaming of the system.
http://www.parl.gc.ca/MarleauMontpetit/DocumentViewer.aspx?Sec=Ch04&Seq=6&Language=E
http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&dir=can/man/ec20155&document=p3&lang=e

That's not to say that MPs don't get lobbied on issues. But it's not like the USA where a House Representative or Senator is basically bought.

 

[summerbreeze]

When it comes to "controversial topic / provocative title" - that's just your perception. I've chosen the topic due to its extremely high importance, and the title simply reflects my stand on this issue. And I don't care if I "insult" anyone by my point of view as long as can back it up with facts. And I bet I can!

So what do we have here? The situation is quite sad: Canada's election, political and (likely) judicial system are all based on unsophisticated fraud. And this situation is not typical at all: I can hardly imagine any other first world country so inherently corrupt as Canada. And we are not talking about corrupt politicians - that's a separate subject. The whole system is inherently corrupt and was definitely not created in good faith initially. And you've gotta be a Canadian in order not to be able to notice that...

Let's look closer into it:

- Elections: the real purpose of FPTP elections is bias towards mainstream parties' candidates: it's always easier for them to get relative majority of votes just because they are "mainstream". Getting absolute majority (50+%) is way more difficult - that's why the second round is necessary if no candidate gets 50+% in the first round. Not mentioning that if you don't get more than 50% of votes, you have no business representing the majority. That's a matter of basic math, not even political opinion. Now technically, if, say, there are 10 candidates in a riding, one gets 12%, 9 others even less than that, the 12% guy will go to Ottawa as an MP to represent his riding for the next 4 years. No second round to determine a true winner! Does it make sense? Well, only for Canadians why probably don't study math at school. In almost any other country in the world this would be considered FRAUD. In Canada it would be just a legitimate way to deprive 88% of voters in that riding of their right to vote.

- Parliament: election fraud continues in the Parliament - the Prime Minister is not directly elected. The most powerful representative of the executive power is "elected" at best in his own tiny riding (see above how), and just because his party gets majority of seats in the Parliament, he becomes the Prime Minister? How democratic is it? Belonging to a political party in the Parliament doesn't mean much anyway - "rats" may "cross the floor" and join their opponents without ANY consequences. Prime Minister represents the whole country: why isn't he elected by the whole country?

But that's just the beginning of the trouble. Shockingly in Canada's Parliament there is no separation of powers (legislative and executive). Prime Minister and cabinet ministers actually sit in the Parliament and VOTE on new laws!!! Inevitable conflict of interests? Inherent corruption? Who cares, we are Canadians, we just don't get it...

And the triumph of the Canadian "democracy" happens when the Prime Minister APPOINTS members of the Senate. Executive power appoints legislators!!!??? The dream of every dictator! Conflict of interests? We are already used to it (see above)... Why Senate can't be elected? No answer. Are you still proud to be Canadian? I'm not.

- Independent Judiciary: considering the above setup, this is our last and only hope. Who else have the power to protect the public from the inherently corrupt state system which doesn't give a shit about it's own constitution (Charter)? Here comes C-36 crafted with impunity by the corrupt government / parliament to knowingly defy the most "sacred' points of the Charter and... NOTHING HAPPENS!!! "Independent Judiciary" is silent. Well, in a few years we may consider the constitutional validity of C-36, and in the meantime you belong in jail, you, perverts, who want to have consensual sex with adults!

IMHO, there is no hope for this country. I fail to see ANY democratic institutions here. There is just a crude illusion of their existence. What a shame...

Suggest you go back to where you came from

 

[Warl0ck]

IMHO, there is no hope for this country. I fail to see ANY democratic institutions here. There is just a crude illusion of their existence. What a shame...

You don't get out much, do you? While Canada is hardly perfect, one only needs to travel a bit to realize it's really not that bad here. In fact, we're pretty fortunate. SO..rather than shit all over things perhaps you might want to go out there an make things better? It could be something as simple as contacting your MP to express your opinion, or enlisting in the military and defending democracy. Who knows, maybe you'll find an SP that likes a man in his dress uniform.

 

[Damaged]

...IMHO, there is no hope for this country. I fail to see ANY democratic institutions here. There is just a crude illusion of their existence. What a shame...

Well then don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Pick a country you prefer and move there...if they'll have you.

 

[overdone]

Is it some kind of a Canadian thing I didn't know about: any intellectual conversation is perceived as offensive or funny?

so which 3rd world banana republic did we let you in from?

just curious

 

[Larry Storch]

Thread is becoming narrow minded and douchey.

 

[johnsmit]

Instead of complaining about are system
How about showing one that does exactly what you claim a democratic electoral system should do . Does one exsit.

The issue is ,do you actually know what democracy is when in a social system.
Look it up and you will find it not what you have though it should be.

Democracy is not doing what the majority votes for.
Democratic is a bout compromise and doing what is best for society as a whole and social order.Of it still should include respecting right of all individual and freedom of though.freedom of religion or be leaf and freedom to do what you want ,basically our liberty of action as long as they don't inpead others rights and freedom and as long as they are not harmful to other or the well being of social order. That should be the basic goal of democratic goverment, and we basically have that in our all be it in perfect political frame work.

The knit picking that many people preoccupy them self withe when it come to our goverment is not very constructive.

If you don't like it get involved to changel it ..and in this country that means you have the choise to join your party of choise and work in that frame work to change party doctrine and what their party platform is.

Those are the guidelines which any elected party members follows when implementing there duties and proposing goverment legislation.

It is allready decided long before any one is voted into office so that is where the public need to make their voice heard first , not after you are unhappy with election results and what the new goverment is or is not doing to make you happy.