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I'd rather my man paid for sex than had an affair: A provocative confession..

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
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Montréal
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I'd rather my man paid for sex than had an affair... a deeply provocative but thought-provoking confession

By Liz Jones





I believe that sex with a prostitute doesn’t really, in the greater scheme of things, matter one jot.

Yes, of course it’s seedy, it’s exploitative, demeaning and risky healthwise, but as far as damage to a relationship goes, I believe an affair is so much worse than your husband sleeping with a prostitute.

An affair means he loves someone else more than he loves you. An affair means a man is intimate with another woman — and by this I don’t mean sex. They read together in bed, they share poetry, they giggle and they talk. They share memories.

I speak from bitter experience. What freaked me out was not my own husband’s random philandering, but his emotional affair with a woman.

He took her photo in a stolen moment on a balcony on holiday. He sent her text messages. He dressed up for her — wearing the special Jil Sander jumper that I had bought him. They went to restaurants together. Men don’t do these things for a prostitute.

Oh, of course I would prefer it if my husband or boyfriend did not sleep with hookers, pay for lap dances, or watch pornography on the internet. (I put all these misdemeanours in the same grubby category.)

But I don’t believe that if a man uses the sex industry, in whatever small or big way, it is necessarily a reason to end a marriage or a relationship.

And while I don’t claim to speak for all women, in my view it is certainly not a sufficiently big misdemeanour to destroy his marriage, or ruin his career, or part him from his children.

I am now going to write something that will enrage feminists the world over, and provoke an outraged backlash in the columns of online feminist website Jezebel (which already has an entire section that monitors me, entitled Keeping Up With Jones).

What I have to say makes a mockery of all those glossy magazine features telling us how to ‘get that multiple orgasm’. It opens a door on all those seemingly-perfect relationships and shiny, happy couples.

I don’t believe women are like characters in Sex And The City. We don’t shout and writhe and pursue sex as heartily and relentlessly as men do. It does not occupy our every waking moment.

The truth is: we don’t really enjoy sex that much. And we definitely don’t want sex as often as men do. That is a cold, hard fact. And women most definitely, incontrovertibly, do not want sex once they have children — or so my friends who have children confess to me. Particularly once their stomachs develop a texture akin to cold porridge.

The only reason we do have sex is to get a man, keep a man, steal his sperm and flatter ourselves that we are attractive.

Once we have a man, his children, his name on a piece of paper, his youth and his house, we no longer want to indulge in that ridiculous, time-consuming, horizontal dance.

The decades of feminism, the millions of dishonest features in magazines like Cosmopolitan, have misled us. We are not equal to men when it comes to libido. We grow up. We have other priorities. Sex slips onto a backburner, sliding to the bottom of an almost endless list of things to do that day.

It would be easy to write here that what women want, and enjoy, is the relationship — the love, companionship and closeness. But I don’t think even that is the whole story.

We want love and closeness up to a point. Most of my friends find the men in their lives a mere annoyance to be hovered over, bossed, and moved around as we Hoover under their giant feet.

No wonder so many men stay late in the office. When it comes to sex, men are different. For men, even for the ugly ones, even for New Men, even for men who go with us to the cinema to see Black Swan, sex is as vital as breathing.

When I used to creep upstairs to surprise my then husband in his office, just so I could catch him watching porn and tell him off, he explained his compulsion thus: ‘Sex to men is like going to the lavatory. We have to do it.’

Well, charming. And not very romantic. But true. And as women retreat from sex (and statistics have revealed we do so very swiftly once embedded in a serious relationship), men by necessity have to look elsewhere.

I remember walking into the office of my (older) female boss the day after I’d discovered my husband was having an affair in 2007.

Rather than doing what all my female friends had done — the predictable, knee-jerk cries of ‘What a nasty b*****d! Get rid!’ — she was pragmatic. ‘Is it serious? Does he love her? If he doesn’t, you really must forgive him, and ignore it if it happens again.’

I wish I’d listened to her.

I’d got married thinking this was it. It was going to be perfect: it was real love.

I would never dream of cheating on a man, not even with an indiscreet text message, a thought or a daydream. I considered men who did so to be disgusting, weak, disloyal, dirty and disease- ridden. The truth is, they are just being men.

My husband admitted openly — in fact, wrote about it in his novel — that he had slept with a prostitute before we met. I found his candor refreshing, and I have to say that I found his high sex drive a turn-on, at first. Later, after a 12-hour day in the office, I found it annoying; yet another chore to be ticked off along with emptying the dishwasher. I can’t be the only woman to feel this way, surely?

I knew we weren’t having enough sex about a year into our marriage, but things (work, leg hair, going to the Conran Shop, freshly ironed sheets I didn’t want to muss up) got in the way.

I remember going to some industry event on my own, just after my husband had set off for three months travelling in India. I confided in a male friend: ‘We haven’t had sex for nine months. Is that normal for a man in his 20s?’ (My husband was 27, I was 14 years older. I can’t even bear to do the sum.) ‘No, it’s not,’ he said, matter-of-factly. ‘He’s doing it with someone else.’

When I later found out my male friend was right, the liaison that finally ended our marriage, out of five or six or seven brief affairs with other women, was the one that threatened to teeter into love. I found affectionate messages on my husband’s mobile phone and in his email inbox.

'The truth is, men enjoy sex far more than women. And if they don't get it at home, of course they'll look elsewhere'

He wrote to her in the exact same way he used to write to me, with lots of lower case kisses. Going through his wallet (I became crazy once I suspected he was fond of this one), I came across her passport photo. He stuck up for her, when he should have been sticking up for me.

I became obsessed with her. I went to her place of work in Manhattan, wanting to confront her (luckily, she was on holiday). I followed her on Facebook. A couple of years later, after my divorce, I told my ex that she had got married and had a baby. ‘Really?’ he said, surprised. ‘You’re obviously more obsessed with her than I ever was.’

I think, looking back, that if the love signs had not been there, I could have forgiven him for looking elsewhere for something that I was too tired or too shy or too busy to give him. If it had just been sex — even sex with a prostitute, in fact, especially if the sex had been with a prostitute — it would have been so much easier to forgive than an affair.

Truth is women have been fed a fantasy, and it is making us all unhappy. I have a friend who works in book publishing. After the birth of her first child, the depression she had suffered on and off, since a teenager, returned with a vengeance. She kept on top of work, but she failed to keep on top of her husband — a nerdy chap who is a teacher in a tough, inner-city school.

To everyone’s shock, she discovered he was visiting a lap-dancing club in Shoreditch on his way home from work. Her friends and family were outraged by his behaviour, and she banished him from the family home. He now lives in a bedsit. I know it’s not ideal that he wasn’t rushing home via Tesco Expresss, but haven’t we become just a little too strident?

I decided to do some more research into the subject of men who stray. I asked seven of my girlfriends, all of whom are either married or living with a man, when was the last time they had had sex. One , a mum-of-four in her mid-40s, said she hadn’t had sex since her last child, who is now three, was born. She told me, laughing, that her husband had asked if they could go on a tantric sex weekend, and she had responded with a tart ‘**** off’.

Another said she couldn’t remember when she had last done it with her husband. Even a woman who had just been on a romantic break with her husband said they hadn’t had sex all weekend because she was so exhausted.

Another said that she and her boyfriend had stopped having sex years ago, and it was only when, in tears, he threatened to leave her, that they broached the subject. He told her he felt ‘like we are best friends, or brother and sister, rather than lovers’.

She told him she felt too overweight and unattractive to do it, and found, to her surprise, that he didn’t really care how she looked: he wanted, needed, to do it anyway. Once again, here was a woman who had bought into the fiction that we have to look perfect to be attractive to a man in bed.

Each woman I spoke to said they put their children before their husband. Only one told me she tried to be as nice to her husband as she is to her female friends. So, what is a man to do? Maybe, just maybe, they don’t want another relationship, to fall in love, because they don’t want to lose us, or their children, or their home. (They probably don’t want another relationship where they are monitored within an inch of their lives, either.)

Yet I know women who don’t even want their men to fantasize, inside their own heads, about anyone other than them. It’s ridiculous. It’s a lie; our own perfect domestic fantasy that doesn’t exist except in books and movies.

As a 19-year-old, I heard, somehow, that my dad, on a business trip in London, had gone to see Deep Throat, starring Linda Lovelace. I was outraged. I sent him to Coventry. But my mum, from a different generation, thought nothing of it. Many years later, whenever I moaned to my mum about my husband’s affairs, her advice had been: ‘Be patient. Be understanding.’ I think now that we’ve become too unforgiving for our own good.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...ought-provoking-confession.html#ixzz1K9L1Th3e



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Hm. Where to begin..?


Discuss. :cool:
 

Rod the bod

New member
May 8, 2010
57
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How bleakly grim. It's not been my experience with SO's or SP's. But then I was cuddled as a baby:)

What I get from the article is a person whose value system is not just materialistic but whose perception of herself and her relationships has been acquired from other sources - she is not and has never driven her own life or sense of self/value - she hasn't got a clue who she is and is living to satisfy some alien/imposed set of standards.

When someone is more concerned with the state of her friggin bedsheets than with having sex in them they have everything in their lives completely back to front.
 
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jnewton

Loitering on PERB
Aug 9, 2010
378
0
0
Well, that explains why it is so easy for men to fall into the "Friend Zone".
 

chilli

Member
Jul 25, 2005
993
12
18
I have found most (not all) women really don't like sex and only "use it" intially to get a man - so they can have babies.

Women say they want men to be "honest" - but this is one of the biggest lies women tell men.
 

wilde

Sinnear Member
Jun 4, 2003
3,037
44
48
There are a lot more straight female prostitutes than their male counterparts. That alone should tell you something...
 

TPH

Banned
Mar 24, 2011
16
0
0
It's a woman's job to please her man sexually. If she does the guy will probably pay for her bills and make some effort to listen to her. The problem with women is they are messed up. They want everything but don't wanna go get it themselves. Women also whine and cry about everything. It's either too cold or too hot or they find some tiny imperfection they dwell on forever. My old lady will give me sex when I want. I'm not really that interested anymore because I'm tired of her constant demands. Her daughter is way better and more fun. But I like SW's the best. You pull up, blow your load and leave. A perfect world would be where all women are like SW's.
 

cjac7214

Banned
Dec 8, 2008
338
1
0
I believe the circumstances described in the article are quite typical, unfortunately. I certainly have them in my relationship, where my wife hates having sex and we are in a sexless relationship that can be expected to stay that way for ever. Since I love sex and happen to think that sex should not be a relationship weapon or manipulation but just purely enjoyed as one would enjoy a great ski run or whatever gets your endorphins going, I have no guilt whatsoever about having sex outside the marriage. In fact, I told my wife that having sex was a necessity for me, and that I will be having it outside of our relationship - she understands and accepts this, although I know that deep down she wishes that I would "just get over it".

To be honest, I would prefer that I had sex with my wife, or used to anyways. We used to have outstanding sex, and were very experimental even allowing each other to have daliances outside of our relationship. Hot, hot, hot! I no longer fanatasize about sex with my wife, and really don't care anymore. The result is that it will be easier to leave her one day. It is unlikely I will be alone - I am a good catch and, even though I am in my early 50's, I have no problem attracting women in their early 30's. The same is not true for women in their 50's who don't like sex, and that is the danger for women in these circumstances. They stand a greater chance of being alone, which may be what they prefer at the end of the day.

When I made the conscious decision to have sex outide the marriage, I concluded that there were three ways for this to happen: 1. Have an affair, 2. Hire an escort, or 3. Be satisfied with random encounters (I met her in the bar on a business trip). I ruled out an affair for exactly the reasons the writer of the article would hope a man would - I don't want emotional complications. Random encounters are...random. They can be exciting but the sex is often awkward, and let's face it, alcohol is usually involved. I take them as they come. With escorts, I get the choice of time and type of experience with a willing partner who may not always be enjoying herself but is at least a good actor. Typically, they know what they are doing and, let's also face it, are hotter than I could attract without a huge amount of effort, if at all.

The only thing missing with an escort is true intimacy - even if they like you as a client, you are a client. I don't view women as merely receptacles for my cum - I enjoy intellectual and emotional connection as part of the sexual relationship. So I have found myself in an interesting scenario. I saw an ad about 10 months ago on CL - a single posting, with no photo, of a woman saying she wanted to escort with a few select clients. We have all seen the "first-timer needs short term financial help" bullshit ads but this one was different in my opinion so I replied. After some correspondence, she decided at the last minute that the idea was not going to be for her. We continued to correspond occasionally, met for lunch, and 8 months later we arranged for a liason. The sex was unbelievable - she is also a really nice person. Since our first liason, we have texted and talked and said all the kinds of things that people in an affair would. We are getting together again tomorrow night.

The thing is that I pay her. I pay way below market rate for the time and quality and amount of sex (and that is not the way she views it) but I pay. The reason I pay is to keep that separation between an affair and an escort-type relationship because if I stopped paying (and I know I could), I think the understanding and nature of relationship would be different.

I am curious how many guys would find this appealing - not quite sugar daddy, not quite an affair.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
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Well I didn't start this thread to be a women/wife bashing thread and though I agree with some of the comments so far, I think some of them are now really fair. For example: To say that women, all women, don't like sex, ever, just because they stop wanting it with long-time partners or when they have kids, is extreme and it's also a nice way to let yourselves off the hook for when faced with the frustrating results. lol


I think it's way more complicated than that and using a general statement like that really doesn't help anyone address this effectively. Sure there are some women who genuinely do not like sex and, I suppose, do not enjoy it *at all* from the start but I don't think they represent all women. Women who aren't comfortable with sex and never try to find out how to or what feels good to them, women who were abused, women who have issues because of religious upbringings or other moral beliefs, etc... but most women do enjoy sex.


The truth is that sex & intimacy in a relationship is totally different for a man than it is for a woman IMO. Just to cover some of the differences: Biologically, because men are driven by their hormones. You don't "like" sex any more than women because you think about it more or want it more, you're just more reacting to That's why there's an expression for thinking with your little head for men but no equivalent for women. Women do not get overcome by hormones that influence their actions, well not this kind of hormones - we have our own kind of hormones to deal with (eg.think PMS). I think there's a distinct difference difference between liking/enjoying sex and sex drive and some of you are confusing the two.


The author openly admits she doesn't really like sex, which is fine, but I really don't think that can be assumed for every other women who's libido decreases with time. I mean, she writes of being married for what, 4 years? And there was a year (presumably since she said they had not had sex for 9 months when he went away for 3 months..) or more where she didn't have sex at all? That doesn't represent the average situation... 4 years, and especially without any children, is rather extreme IMO. We shouldn't confuse her own personal feelings and issues about sex with women's lower libido in general - those are two separate issues.


What I think is the most damaging out of all of this, is that no one is talking about this. It goes on in most marriages/long-term partnerships, yet no one is addressing it. Not admitting to it means men, as can be witnessed from the above comments, resent women and come to their own conclusions about why these differences exist, which really don't address the real issues. And the same for women, who remain oblivious until it's no longer possible to ignore. And even then, they still don't truly understand why their husband might have gone elsewhere for the sex they had no desire to give him. In short, no one wins.


There's not anything we can do about our differences if no one will admit they are there and they are significant. Pretending it's not a problem isn't helping anyone in the end. Men will continue to be dissatisfied and frustrated with the lack of sex in their sexual lives and women will continue to be surprised, devastated by their husbands affairs and there will continue to be a fundamental lack of understanding for the differences between men and women libido, and the increasing gap with time.


It's not as simple as men loving sex and women not liking it. Like I said, that's a convenient conclusion to draw that offers no solution, no real understanding and a way to avoid any personal responsibility. It also kind of leaves both men and women feeling powerless, hopeless, defeated and quite frankly, resentful. I think that is what our society's current attitude and denial is creating.


I could write so much more but I will leave it here for now. :)






Jesus, did I wake up in the 1950's? I'm not entirely sure who was offended more in the article, women or men.

I agree. The article was loaded with some pretty insane statements. I was thinking: "Holy baggage, lady". Obviously she's got some issues. lol But I think some of what she was saying and just the topic itself deserves some consideration, even if we disagree.
 

tantalizeme

wolf in sheep's clothing
Oct 5, 2007
1,512
12
38
When I made the conscious decision to have sex outide the marriage, I concluded that there were three ways for this to happen: 1. Have an affair, 2. Hire an escort, or 3. Be satisfied with random encounters (I met her in the bar on a business trip).

The only thing missing with an escort is true intimacy - even if they like you as a client, you are a client. I don't view women as merely receptacles for my cum - I enjoy intellectual and emotional connection as part of the sexual relationship. So I have found myself in an interesting scenario. I saw an ad about 10 months ago on CL - a single posting, with no photo, of a woman saying she wanted to escort with a few select clients. We have all seen the "first-timer needs short term financial help" bullshit ads but this one was different in my opinion so I replied. After some correspondence, she decided at the last minute that the idea was not going to be for her. We continued to correspond occasionally, met for lunch, and 8 months later we arranged for a liason. The sex was unbelievable - she is also a really nice person. Since our first liason, we have texted and talked and said all the kinds of things that people in an affair would. We are getting together again tomorrow night.

The thing is that I pay her. I pay way below market rate for the time and quality and amount of sex (and that is not the way she views it) but I pay. The reason I pay is to keep that separation between an affair and an escort-type relationship because if I stopped paying (and I know I could), I think the understanding and nature of relationship would be different.
Lots of insightful comments on this thread, about what I perceive to be one of life's most fateful realities: the mismatched level of interest, between most women and most men, in both amount and type of sex. Kudos to Miss*Bijou for posting Liz Jones' article and commenting on it with her usual level-headed eloquence.

I can really relate to your perspective, cjac—though my situation is somewhat different. I never married, in part because I've repeatedly experienced the fragility of satisfying sex in long-term relationships—and the risk of ending up trapped in the sexual wasteland of an average marriage is just too unpalatable. Great, brother, that you found an exceptional arrangement with a not-quite sugar baby (though from what you say, emotional entanglement seems drawing perilously close, no?).

Liz Jones exaggerates and oversimplifies male-female differences in sexual interest, to be sure. But, at least as far as my experience goes, I've never had a GF whose sexuality kept satisfactory pace with my own over time. I've learnt not to hold this against a woman, but just accept her for who she is.

My personal attempt to bridge the gap between the sex I crave and the sex my current GF is interested in providing—apart from jerking off to porn—really involves 3 steps:

1. As Liz Jones advocates, I tell a woman early on that I'm not a monogamous guy. I've negotiated with my GF that, as long as I pay for sex, it's okay with her; just no emotionally messy affairs. The obvious downside is, of course, that on an average income you can go bankrupt in short order relying on the Vancouver escort scene.

2. A suitable GF, for me, has to show a reasonable amount of motivation and courage to explore the swinging lifestyle. It's amazing how some women's libido comes into its own when they're on the receiving end of all this sexual attention and even occasional gangbangs.

3. Every so often (well, usually once a year—that's all I can afford) I like to go overseas and bust loose, sexually, in places where the cost is low and service levels are high. I don't frankly believe there's anything morally wrong with sex tourism as long as it involves only consenting adults who're economically helped and treated respectfully.

So yes, I think men's & women's sexuality is badly mismatched, for both genetic and cultural reasons. If anyone has creative ideas how a guy can navigate this mismatch without squelching his erotic impulses, I'd like to hear them.
 

Man Mountain

Too Old To Die Young
Oct 29, 2006
3,851
29
0
Vancouver
Miss*Bijou's post of Liz Jones' article said:
.​

An affair means a man is intimate with another woman — and by this I don’t mean sex. They read together in bed, they share poetry, they giggle and they talk. They share memories.

He took her photo in a stolen moment on a balcony on holiday. He sent her text messages. He dressed up for her — wearing the special Jil Sander jumper that I had bought him. They went to restaurants together. Men don’t do these things for a prostitute.
Maybe not all men who see SPs but some most certainly do. Case in point:

The only thing missing with an escort is true intimacy - even if they like you as a client, you are a client. I don't view women as merely receptacles for my cum - I enjoy intellectual and emotional connection as part of the sexual relationship. So I have found myself in an interesting scenario. I saw an ad about 10 months ago on CL - a single posting, with no photo, of a woman saying she wanted to escort with a few select clients. We have all seen the "first-timer needs short term financial help" bullshit ads but this one was different in my opinion so I replied. After some correspondence, she decided at the last minute that the idea was not going to be for her. We continued to correspond occasionally, met for lunch, and 8 months later we arranged for a liason. The sex was unbelievable - she is also a really nice person. Since our first liason, we have texted and talked and said all the kinds of things that people in an affair would. We are getting together again tomorrow night.
By the way, thanks for this post, cjac7214. To me, that type of relationship sounds more fulfilling than the typical SP-client relationship but as tantalizeme has pointed out, it has the potential to come dangerously close to an "emotional entanglement" (I quite like the way you phrased that, tantalizeme).
 
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Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
44
48
Montréal
2. A suitable GF, for me, has to show a reasonable amount of motivation and courage to explore the swinging lifestyle. It`s amazing how some women`s libido comes into its own when they`re on the receiving end of all this sexual attention and even occasional gangbangs.


Totally agree, Tantalizeme! I`m glad you brought this up. I didn`t go there this time but this is something I`ve brought up some time ago about the myth of monogamy. I honestly believe that if women were also exploring with new people, either accompanied by their partner or on their own (but with their consent, of course).. their married sex life would be far more satisfying. The attention received and inevitable confidence and excitement it would result in a lasting desire and playfulness that currently just seems to fade or altogether die out with a lot of women.


Of course, most men would be absolutely unable to handle the idea of watching/imagining their partner with others. And of course, the majority of women would not be open to this either, still convinced that love is only real or legitimate if it involves monogamy.

If we could get over our issues about sex - eg. that it`s bad, dirty, should always involve romantic emotions, only with monogamous partners/relationships - and get rid of the guilt and harmful moral beliefs we have about sex, not to mention the way one is either a "bad" girl or a "good" girl depending on how sexually active or adventurous she is (see Madonna/whore complex explained thread!)... and if we actually stopped pretending that our expectations of monogamy are realistic or even healthy - there might be a chance. Unfortunately I don`t think we`re there yet. Actually, we`re not even close!
 

Man Mountain

Too Old To Die Young
Oct 29, 2006
3,851
29
0
Vancouver
Man Mountain, the way you quoted the article makes it look like I said that! lol

Just to be clear... I didn't write it, the author of that article did! Just to clarify! haha
Sorry. I just wanted to quote the part that was relevant to what I was commenting on. I'll edit.
 

FunSugarDaddy

New member
Aug 15, 2008
1,110
5
0
I am curious how many guys would find this appealing - not quite sugar daddy, not quite an affair.
I'm pretty much in the same boat, except it's been going on and off for five years. Strange as it sounds we had an ongoing pissing contest that lasted about a year..lol
But the last 6 months or so have been great...and yes, boundaries have been crossed, then uncrossed then crossed again and uncrossed over this period of time.
 

Miss*Bijou

Sexy Troublemaker
Nov 9, 2006
3,136
44
48
Montréal
By the way - I found these pretty interesting:





Security 'bad news for sex drive'
A woman's sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research.



Researchers from Germany found that four years into a relationship, less than half of 30-year-old women wanted regular sex.

Conversely, the team found a man's libido remained the same regardless of how long he had been in a relationship.

Writing in the journal Human Nature, the scientists said the differences resulted from how humans had evolved.

The researchers from Hamburg-Eppendorf University Hospital interviewed 530 men and women about their relationships.

They found 60% of 30-year-old women wanted sex "often" at the beginning of a relationship, but within four years of the relationship this figure fell to under 50%, and after 20 years it dropped to about 20%.

In contrast, they found the proportion of men wanting regular sex remained at between 60-80%, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship.


Tenderness

The study also revealed tenderness was important for women in a relationship.

About 90% of women wanted tenderness, regardless of how long they had been in a relationship, but only 25% of men who had been in a relationship for 10 years said they were still seeking tenderness from their partner.

Dr Dietrich Klusmann, lead author of the study and a psychologist from Hamburg-Eppendorf University Hospital, believed the differences were down to human evolution.

He said: "For men, a good reason their sexual motivation to remain constant would be to guard against being cuckolded by another male."

But women, he said, have evolved to have a high sex drive when they are initially in a relationship in order to form a "pair bond" with their partner.

But, once this bond is sealed a woman's sexual appetite declines, he added.

He said animal behaviour studies suggest this could be because females may be diverting their sexual interest towards other men, in order to secure the best combinations of genetic material for their offspring.

Or, he said, this could be because limiting sex may boost their partner's interest in it.

Professor George Fieldman, an evolutionary psychologist from Buckinghamshire Chilterns University College, said: "These findings seem to fit in with anecdotal studies and his explanations seem plausible.

"The rational for why a woman's sex drive declines may be down to supply and demand. If something is in infinite supply, the perceived value would drop."


For men, a good reason their sexual motivation to remain constant would be to guard against being cuckolded by another male - Dr Dietrich Klusmann

Source: BBC










Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?
Experts say men score higher in libido, while women's sex drive is more "fluid."



Birds do it, bees do it, and men do it any old time. But women will only do it if the candles are scented just right -- and their partner has done the dishes first. A stereotype, sure, but is it true? Do men really have stronger sex drives than women?

Well, yes, they do. Study after study illustrates that men's sex drives are not only stronger than women's, but much more straightforward. The sources of women's libidos, by contrast, are much more difficult to pin down.

It's common wisdom that women place more value on emotional connection as a spark of sexual desire. But women also appear to be heavily influenced by social and cultural factors as well.

"Sexual desire in women is extremely sensitive to environment and context," says Edward O. Laumann, PhD, a professor of sociology at the University of Chicago and lead author of a major survey of sexual practices, The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States.

Here are seven patterns of men's and women's sex drives that researchers have found. Bear in mind that individuals may vary from these norms.


1. Men think more about sex.

The majority of adult men under 60 think about sex at least once a day, reports Laumann. Only about one-quarter of women report this level of frequency. As men and women age, each fantasize less, but men still fantasize about twice as often.

In a comprehensive survey of studies comparing male and female sex drives, Roy Baumeister, a social psychologist at Florida State University, found that men reported more spontaneous sexual arousal and had more frequent and varied fantasies.




2. Men seek sex more avidly.

"Men want sex more often than women at the start of a relationship, in the middle of it, and after many years of it," Baumeister concludes after reviewing several surveys of men and women. This isn't just true of heterosexuals, he reports: gay men also have higher frequency of sex than lesbians at all stages of the relationship. Men also say they want more sex partners in their lifetime, and are more interested in casual sex.

Men are more likely to seek sex even when it is frowned upon or even outlawed:

* About two-thirds say they masturbate, even though about half also say they feel guilty about it, Laumann says. By contrast, about 40% of women say they masturbate, and the frequency of masturbation is smaller among women.
* Prostitution is still mostly a phenomenon of men seeking sex with women, rather than the other way around.
* Nuns do a better job of fulfilling their vows of chastity than priests. Baumeister cites a survey of several hundred clergy by Sheila Murphy in which 62% of priests admitted to sexual activity, compared to 49% of nuns. The men reported more partners on average than the women.



3. Women's sexual inclinations are more complicated than men's.

What turns women on? Not even women always seem to know. Northwestern University researcher Meredith Chivers and colleagues showed erotic films to gay and straight men and women. They asked them about their level of sexual arousal, and also measured their actual level of arousal through devices attached to their genitals.

For men, the results were predictable: Straight men said they were more turned on by depictions of male-female sex and female-female sex, and the measuring devices backed up their claims. Gay men said they were turned on by male-male sex, and again the devices backed them up. For women, the results were more surprising. Straight women, for example, saidthey were more turned on by male-female sex. But genitally they showed about the same reaction to male-female, male-male, and female-female sex.

"Men are very rigid and specific about who they become aroused by, who they want to have sex with, who they fall in love with," says J. Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University sex researcher and co-author with Chivers on the study.

By contrast, women may be more open to same-sex relationships thanks to their less-directed sex drives, Bailey says. "Women probably have the capacity to become sexually interested in and fall in love with their own sex more than men do," Bailey says. "They won't necessarily do it, but they have the capacity."

Bailey's contention is backed up by studies showing that homosexuality is a more fluid state among women than men. In another broad review of studies, Baumeister found many more lesbians reported recent sex with men, when compared to gay men's reports of sex with women. Women were also more likely than men to call themselves bisexual, and to report their sexual orientation as a matter of choice.



4. Women's sex drives are more influenced by social and cultural factors.

In his review, Baumeister found studies showing many ways in which women's sexual attitudes, practices and desires were more influenced by their environment than men:

* Women's attitudes towards (and willingness to perform) various sexual practices are more likely than men's to change over time.
* Women who regularly attend church are less likely to have permissive attitudes about sex. Men do not show this connection between church attendance and sex attitudes.
* Women are more influenced by the attitudes of their peer group in their decisions about sex.
* Women with higher education levels were more likely to have performed a wider variety of sexual practices (such as oral sex); education made less of a difference with men.
* Women were more likely than men to show inconsistency between their expressed values about sexual activities such as premarital sex and their actual behavior.


Why are women's sex drives seemingly weaker and more vulnerable to influence? Some have theorized it is related to the greater power of men in society, or differing sexual expectations of men when compared to women. Laumann prefers an explanation more closely tied to the world of sociobiology.

Men have every incentive to have sex to pass along their genetic material, Laumann says. By contrast, women may be hard-wired to choose their partners carefully, because they are the ones who can get pregnant and wind up taking care of the baby. They are likely to be more attuned to relationship quality because they want a partner who will stay around to take care of the child. They're also more likely to choose a man with resources because of his greater ability to support a child.



5. Women take a less direct route to sexual satisfaction.

Men and women travel slightly different paths to arrive at sexual desire. "I hear women say in my office that desire originates much more between the ears than between the legs," says Esther Perel, a New York City psychotherapist and author of Mating in Captivity. "For women there is a need for a plot -- hence the romance novel. It is more about the anticipation, how you get there; it is the longing that is the fuel for desire," Perel says.

Women's desire "is more contextual, more subjective, more layered on a lattice of emotion," Perel adds. Men, by contrast, don't need to have nearly as much imagination, Perel says, since sex is simpler and more straightforward for them.

That does not mean that men do not seek intimacy, love, and connection in a relationship, just as women do. They just view the role of sex differently. "Women want to talk first, connect first, then have sex," Perel explains. "For men, sex is the connection. Sex is the language men use to express their tender loving vulnerable side," Perel says. "It is their language of intimacy."




6. Women experience orgasms differently than men.

While researchers find it tricky to try to quantify issues like the differing quality of male vs. female orgasms, they do have data on how long it takes men and women to get there. Men, on average, take four minutes from the point of entry until ejaculation, according to Laumann. Women usually take around 10 to 11 minutes to reach orgasm -- if they do.

That's another difference between the sexes: how often they have an orgasm during sex. Among men who are part of a couple, 75% report that they always have an orgasm, as opposed to 26% of the women. And not only is there a difference in reality, there's one in perception, too. While the men's female partners reported their rate of orgasm accurately, the women's male partners reported that they believed their female partners had orgasms 45% of the time.



7. Women's libidos seem to be less amenable to drugs.

With men's sex drives seemingly more directly tied to biology when compared to women, it may be no surprise that low desire may be more easily treated through medication in men. Men have embraced drugs as a cure not only for erectile dysfunction but also for a shrinking libido. With women, however, the search for a drug to boost sex drive has proved more elusive.

Testosterone has been linked to sex drive in both men and women. But testosterone works much faster in men with low libidos than women, says Glenn Braunstein, MD an endocrinologist and chair of the department of medicine at Cedars Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles and a leading researcher on testosterone treatments in women. And while the treatments are effective, they are not as effective in women as in men. "There is a hormonal factor in [sex drive], but it is much more important in men than women," Braunstein says.


Source: webmd


 

cjac7214

Banned
Dec 8, 2008
338
1
0
I honestly believe that if women were also exploring with new people, either accompanied by their partner or on their own (but with their consent, of course).. their married sex life would be far more satisfying. The attention received and inevitable confidence and excitement it would result in a lasting desire and playfulness that currently just seems to fade or altogether die out with a lot of women.

Of course, most men would be absolutely unable to handle the idea of watching/imagining their partner with others. And of course, the majority of women would not be open to this either, still convinced that love is only real or legitimate if it involves monogamy.!
Intellectually, I agree with you Miss Bijou, and I walked the talk. See below:

We used to have outstanding sex, and were very experimental even allowing each other to have daliances outside of our relationship.
We had many variances of multiple partner sex: MFF sex, MMMF sex, MMMFFF sex - it was great and I loved that my wife was so turned on. She also had one-on-one sex with certain men of her choosing - always with my knowledge and consent. She was confident, happy and drop dead beautiful.

But then she fell in love. And the man in question headed for the hills as soon as she expressed this, and, subsequently, our sex life was history. You may reply that there must have been other factors or just bad timing (that's what my wife said after she told me that she had been having an affair for three years and had fallen in love out of one of our "swinging relationships" and was no longer interested in sex after it ended) but those are the sequence of events and they are hard not to link.

We could debate this forever but I think that it is fair to say that women do value the emotional elements of good sex more than most men, who typically put a higher value on the physical element than women do. Bottom line, most men have an easier time having sex without a relationship than most women. Good thing, or you would be out of a job.

I think swinging or polyamourous relationships are a swell idea, and one possible solution to the "libido gap". I hear a lot of people here on PERB and elsewhere sing the virtues - I post this as a warning that there can be consequences as in my experience.
 

vancity_cowboy

hard riding member
Jan 27, 2008
5,491
8
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great thread... eloquent, thought provoking responses

after reading al`s comments about `the monster`, i now understand things much better

i had a situation similar to cjac`s, off CL too as it turns out, but the allure of the sp ads was too much for me, and i let her go. now that so many TWOT`s have entered the market, i wish i hadn`t

i don`t know about some of the percentages quoted here, in my experience i`ve only met three sps that truly enjoyed sex, and were easily brought to orgasms. they freely gave me hours of extra time, even though i only ever had to pay the rate for an hour. but in time even they retired from the biz for other occupations. two of them still email me for paid sex on rare occasions - usually just before Christmas :)

for my part, i do require some tenderness amd sweet nothings for the sex act to be satisfying, and i always continue an email correspondence with the sps afterward with whom i have shared that tenderness to express my thanks for them having let me into their lives, if only for a moment

miss jasmine has a post about somewhat the same topic - listen to the video https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?148435-Madonna-Whore-complex-explained
 

Rod the bod

New member
May 8, 2010
57
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Bijou - very good thread and excellent post by you and others. I really think the joy factor is important. Joy, play and mystery are the key elements that go stale in fixed relationships. Does Liz Jones look joyful? Is that a very fake smile? Or is it just that my attitude to her is so dominated by the miserable life she leads and has put her husband through?:)

I hope this article adds to the debate:


The joy of confidence
Surveys show that women in their 40s are having the best sex of their lives, says Joanna Moorhead. But is this down to self-esteem, hormones - or affairs?
Joanna Moorhead
Wednesday February 4 2009
The Guardian


At 48, Philippa is vivacious, attractive and is having the best sex of her life. "It's quite wonderful," she says. "If you'd told me at 28 that this would be happening I'd never have believed it."

But there's a catch. "It's great sex, but it's not with my husband. To be absolutely honest, he's the last man on the planet I'd want to have sex with."

Philippa is by no means the only fortysomething having a great time in the bedroom. In a survey of 2,000 women carried out by Health Plus magazine, 77% said that their sex life was at its best in their 40s; 82% of that age group also said that sex was as important to them as it had ever been. Other surveys echo these conclusions - one carried out in the US, for instance, found that women in their 40s want to have sex more often than younger women. Jane Polden, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with middle-aged women, says it's a story she hears time and again, as does relationship psychologist Susan Quilliam, co-author of The New Joy of Sex. "There's plenty of research that shows sex gets better for women as they get older," says Quilliam. "It's one of the best-kept secrets of women's lives." While our culture constantly associates sexiness with youth, the truth seems to be that it is those of us who are approaching the menopause - our hair greying, skin sagging a little - who are at our sexual peak.

Polden says there is a host of reasons for this. One is simply that, by this age, women tend to have fewer insecurities. "Younger women are much more likely to be obsessed with their appearance, their weight and so on," she says, "and worries about those things sap their self-confidence and get in the way of them enjoying themselves. Older women are more confident of who they are, and it's a deep-seated confidence, which means they're not scared of intimacy, and they're not scared of going all out for what they need to feel satisfied."

The impending menopause is also significant. As it approaches, levels of the so-called "nurturing" hormones - oestrogen and oxytocin - diminish in women, which allows our testosterone to make more of an impact. The theory is that from puberty women are physically wired to be attentive to the needs of others, our bodies priming us to care for children. In our 40s, though, when those nurturing hormones melt away, many women are led to the epiphany that they have been putting their own needs in second place for decades.

"It's an extraordinary moment of realisation for many women," says Polden. "Doris Lessing sums it up very well in her book The Summer Before the Dark. Her fortysomething heroine has an affair, and she says it makes her feel herself for the first time since she was 13. *She's felt overwhelmed, controlled almost, by this hormonal surge ... and now it's draining away, and she can work out who she is, and who she wants to be."

For many women, the light that goes on illuminates a faltering marriage. "It was almost inevitable, really, that I'd find Paul boring after 20 years," says Philippa. "But it wasn't just the boredom - he also seemed not to be the right partner for me any more. It struck me that when I was younger I was searching for an alpha male, a provider, but what I want now is a much more sensitive man." From the practical point of view, she says, there is also more space in her life to enjoy herself now that the children are growing up. "It's wonderful to go out for lunch with someone who notices what I'm wearing and flirts with me. It spices everything up, it makes me feel energised and youthful, at precisely the moment I was beginning to feel a bit dull and over the hill." And a lot of women in their 40s seem to share this sense that they suddenly have time to indulge themselves. Having brought up their toddlers, they have more freedom to go out again and relax with their husband, their partner - or indeed someone else entirely.

The data on extramarital affairs supports the notion that, like Philippa, many fortysomething women are having great sex with someone other than their husband. A study last year from the University of New Hampshire found that the most common age for women to have affairs is 45 (for men it's 55) and these US figures dovetail with a UK study last summer that found that women aged 45-54 had the highest rates of STIs for their gender, while men aged 55-60 had the highest rates for theirs. The authors of that last study said that their research suggested that "sexual risk-taking behaviour is not confined to young people".

For those who embark on them, the fortysomething sexual relationship is often a way of reclaiming their youth. "It's been the most delicious, unexpected, delightful pleasure ever," says Nancy, 50, who split up with her long-term partner four years ago and, soon afterwards, met George. "I thought I'd hung up my boots, and to find myself in love again has been amazing. I don't feel 20 again - I can't claim that - but I do feel the world is full of possibilities, just as I did when I was 20." For some it represents a second chance. "I met Stephen at 19 and married him at 22," says Harriet. "He was my only lover. But our marriage went stale, as they do, and one night at a drinks party I met someone new, and we ended up having the most amazing sex upstairs in a bedroom while the party was happening below." Harriet has since found another lover, although she still lives with her husband and their children.

Women's enjoyment of sex in their 40s can also be chalked up at least partly to feminist advances, which have made us much less likely to settle for second best. In the past, many women simply tolerated their husbands' affairs - now they're getting out there themselves. "My marriage wasn't working," says Sian, 49, who has had an on-off affair with an old university friend for the last two years. "And my feminist instinct is that if things aren't right for you as a woman, you change them. Women of my generation know we can change the world - we've done it before." The fact that most women in their 40s are in employment also means that they have many more opportunities to meet men - and to pursue affairs - than their stay-at-home predecessors.

These mid-life affairs don't necessarily spell the end of a marriage. Quilliam believes that a sexual relationship with a life partner, especially one with whom you have children, leaves an attachment even once the sex is over, which can potentially carry a couple through a few crisis years. For some women, though, finding a lover in their 40s is a prequel to leaving their marriage (in seven out of 10 cases, divorce is instigated by women). "Many of those who have affairs at this time in their life are having what we'd call transition relationships," says Quilliam. "Their main purpose is to reaffirm these women sexually and to help them believe that they could have another long-term relationship with someone new - even if it isn't this particular one. So they boost your self-belief, and they give you the confidence to get back on the market sexually."

For Quilliam, another key factor in the 40s sexual peak is that this is the age at which we really start railing against the inevitability of death. "The menopause rehearses our mortality," she says. "We have to face the fact that we're no longer able to have babies, no longer able to pass on life. We're losing our looks: it's a wake-up call to the fact that we won't go on forever, that one day in the no longer impossibly distant future, we're going to die. And sex and death are very closely related. Put crudely, we fuck to prove we're alive."

? Some names have been changedSex in your 40s: *The secret to a great love life

Start again

"Novelty does help," says relationship psychologist, Susan Quilliam. "You don't have to go out and buy a French maid's outfit, but be open to ideas." If you've been in a relationship for many years, she says, you'll have long ago worked out what turns you on - but will have forgotten to change the formula. "And people do change; women especially, with all these hormonal changes. But men change too. So start again: talk about what you want, what you'd like, get more adept at expressing it. And ask your partner to talk about what he wants as well."

Role play

Weave a fantasy, says psychotherapist Jane Polden. It might be a cliche, but that's because it works. "One thing I often suggest is that you meet your partner somewhere new, and take on new personae. You can be anyone - someone from the other side of the world, someone who has run away to join a circus, whoever you want. And you'll be spinning a complete story, but your unconscious will be coming out too. And you'll be learning to play again. Forgetting how to play is the death-knell to many a long-term sex life."

Make your love life a priority

"The real secrets here are communication and commitment," says sexual psychotherapist, Paula Hall. "You've both got busy lives, you're up to your neck in kids and their needs, and you've stopped prioritising your sex lives. By committing to sex, you're making a really important statement to your partner. "

Consider sex therapy

Don't rule out getting more advice, in the form of therapy. "Take the same approach that you would to, say, playing tennis," says Hall. "You enjoy tennis, it's a good way of keeping fit, and sometimes you might invest some time and money in lessons so you become a better player, and get more out of your tennis. Take that line with sex - it's not just about fulfilling a basic requirement, it's about becoming a connoisseur."

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited 2009
 

ihatemyskirt

Member
Aug 17, 2004
619
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liquid city
It's a woman's job to please her man sexually. If she does the guy will probably pay for her bills and make some effort to listen to her. The problem with women is they are messed up. They want everything but don't wanna go get it themselves. Women also whine and cry about everything. It's either too cold or too hot or they find some tiny imperfection they dwell on forever. My old lady will give me sex when I want. I'm not really that interested anymore because I'm tired of her constant demands. Her daughter is way better and more fun. But I like SW's the best. You pull up, blow your load and leave. A perfect world would be where all women are like SW's.

Hahaha I thnk I hate you.lol
 
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