Day Trading?

[Curious87]

I know nothing of stocks/markets or even how to get in, but wanted opinions on this. Sorry to derail thread slightly, but maybe it will be useful to OP?!

around March/April when shit hit the fan, Expedia was trading around $32 a share. I had thought to invest (if shares are even available?) expecting a long term recovery when virus is brought under control and people are free to travel. Playing on human emotion I see a huge boom in tourism industry once the lockdowns are over, and Expedia seemed well balanced to ride out the interim and survive. Today, they are trading at over $120 from what I seen.... did I miss a great chance? Is it too late now? Some reading shows an expected average of 160-180 share/average of previous years...

along the same line of thought, CTrip (trip.com, Chinese based Expedia) is around $20 a share and not growing, but treading water. Chinese travellers are still relatively new to using sites like this to book travel, but growing popularity year by year. Could this be a good longer term stock to bury money in? (Again if shares even available?)

both investments would be treated what I call “Vegas style”. Essentially pick a number, push all the chips onto it I’m willing to part with, and roll the dice. Come out of it down the line with a nice boost, or lose it all and move on?

sorry to go off topic a bit, first post for myself on here but been hanging around almost a year now. If it should be moved/deleted then sorry mods, please do!

Just hoping some advice might help me and OP at same time.

 

[SeekSteadyRegSP]

Seriously mate, how else would you interpret "when that stock you sold for a 20% gain splits a week later and all you can think about is you could've made an 80% gain"? Clearly it's an incorrect understanding of how splits work. I agree, Grizzly didn't mention "4 for 1", but everything else he/she said in response clearly indicates that Grizz does not understand how a split works. But if it makes you feel better, continue on with your personal insults/attacks on me!

Not only was your putting words into statements that weren't made completely wrong, but your math isn't very good either.


You spend $500 total buying 100 shares... you sold them for $600... the stock then splits it is at that point still worth $600 (a "20% gain" )


an 80% gain would entail a $900 return.


Now nothing about 4-for-1 stock split (or having 400 shares instead of your original 100) equates to an automatic "80% gain" .


The poorly-conceived line of thinking you were accusing him of... would entail a THREE HUNDRED PERCENT gain on that erroneous understanding of a stock split.


It's OK if you have zero idea what on earth you're talking about around here... but it is unwise to make that so OBVIOUS to others, while at the same time crediting others with things they did not say.


The only clueless math in this thread has been your own.

I'm not disputing your point about emotions getting in the way of making sound decisions. But again, your "piss off factor" comment about splits above, is showing AGAIN, that you fundamentally misunderstand the concept of a stock-split. All things being equal, selling a stock just prior to or just after a stock split, generally, has no impact on ones return on that stock. And the assertion from your original post that having sold off a stock prior to a 4 to 1 split and missing out on an 80% return as opposed to your 20% return -

Any idiot can tell that the math to which you're referring would result in a 300% gain... and nothing near to the "80" your mind so quickly and erroneously created.


Nice try though!


(and how come, in your mind, your "attack" on grizz was just a platform for sharing your clueless math and lack of understanding, while at the same time you see "attack" in somebody correcting your clueless and misleading math?)

 

[appleomac]

Not only was your putting words into statements that weren't made completely wrong, but your math isn't very good either.


You spend $500 total buying 100 shares... you sold them for $600... the stock then splits it is at that point still worth $600 (a "20% gain" )


an 80% gain would entail a $900 return.


Now nothing about 4-for-1 stock split (or having 400 shares instead of your original 100) equates to an automatic "80% gain" .


The poorly-conceived line of thinking you were accusing him of... would entail a THREE HUNDRED PERCENT gain on that erroneous understanding of a stock split.


It's OK if you have zero idea what on earth you're talking about around here... but it is unwise to make that so OBVIOUS to others, while at the same time crediting others with things they did not say.


The only clueless math in this thread has been your own.




Any idiot can tell that the math to which you're referring would result in a 300% gain... and nothing near to the "80" your mind so quickly and erroneously created.


Nice try though!


(and how come, in your mind, your "attack" on grizz was just a platform for sharing your clueless math and lack of understanding, while at the same time you see "attack" in somebody correcting your clueless and misleading math?)

You're confusing yourself (I believe) because you're misunderstanding my point. Simply put, when someone says something to the effect of "I made 20% on a stock but could have had 80% because it split a week later" - my point (because nothing was said about if it split 2-1, 3-1, or whatever and given that splits do not generate in and of themselves massive "bumps") is that such a statement incorrectly applies the magnitude of the split to the return. 20% vs 80% is a 4x increase/multiple. Ergo, one completely misunderstands stock splits if they believe a 20% return is equivalent to 80% post 4-1 split. That was my point, that is all. So please, give it a rest trying to impute anything other than that. Again, the reason you are "confused" with the math is because I am speaking to a 4x multiplier being applied (incorrectly) to both the number of shares and % return.

 

[2curious]

All of this clutter aside, best advice is open a TFSA Investment Account and start to learn how to invest.

 

[Lady Companion]

The problem with "stop loss order" is it represents the opposite of what we're trying to achieve here. The objective is to buy low and sell high, not buy low and sell even lower. If it is a stock you believe will rebound, this is a time to buy more, not sell off as it is essentially on sale. Although I do agree that one should set a limit as to how much you are willing to loose, but I would suggest setting a target and sticking to it as well and don't let your emotions get to you when that stock you sold for a 20% gain splits a week later and all you can think about is you could've made an 80% gain.

Very true, but that would apply more to investing than day trading. With investing, you purchase what you consider fundamentally strong stocks that will perform well over the long-haul. It is less important to be monitoring them on a daily or even weekly basis, as you are hoping for a decent return over the long run.

Daytrading trading takes advantage of highly volatile stocks. Personally, I always put in a stop loss for anything I day trade. Even though I’ll probably be glued to four monitors tracking everything anyway.

There is always another opportunity. There is always another stock. It’s too easy to get emotionally attached to a non-performing, under performing or tanking stock.
If you’re looking short term, which day trading is, you ditch when it doesn’t do what it should PDQ.

This is my personal experience, and I do not have any related degree. However, my trading makes me substantially more than my income as a companion, and I probably wouldn’t starve off my companion income alone

 

[2curious]

Santa Claus Rally officially kicks off tomorrow through first week of January, so place your bets....mind you, I'm not a day trader but it's nice to see green after Tax Loss selling

 

[604jbear]

With investing, you purchase what you consider fundamentally strong stocks that will perform well over the long-haul.

Under normal circumstances, this is true. But lately, fundamentals have been thrown out the window!

 

[2curious]

Prime example....

 

[AMG-GTR]

I’m late to the party here but I would consider myself highly experienced and competent in this area of discussion (I worked at a hedge fund in Manhattan pre-financial crisis).

I wouldn’t feel good just reading and walking away without sharing some personal advice.

#1. What is your reason for day trading? This may sound like a stupid question but this is highly important. Are you looking to supplement your income? Make a million dollars? Is this a try it and see what happens experience? Do you have expectations? This matters because day/short term trading only works in a very specific set of conditions. If the goal and the process do not line up, it cannot be shoe-horned, failure is guaranteed.

#2. The internet is full of bullshit. There are trading groups and trading teaching programs and a pile of other value add companies that are careful enough to not lie to you, but will not be the answer to your journey with trading/investing. I personally know of ex-coworkers that used their experience to self brand as internet experts and they make a lot of money teaching people how to trade, while their own personal money is loaded in index funds or small cap growth ETFs.

#3. If you are serious about day trading, find someone that is doing it for real and learn from them as much as possible. Even if it costs you some money, it’s worth watching and learning.

#4. Invest what you are willing to lose. Every business requires an investment of capital and sweat. Be prepared to put in a lot of effort towards both with no guarantee of success. There is a book about my old industry called “Where are the clients Yachts?”. While the story has a lot of holes in it, the general message is true.


I worked in that space with the objective of wanting to help people make money so that I could make money. Hedge funds do work in some cases but the markets are highly efficient (even though they are still highly irrational). Essentially, arbitrage, early trend identification, and successful prediction (with or without insider information) are the only ways to make money in the market quickly. Other means require time. Good hedge funds have to be incredibly small in orders to be effective (sub $100m) as larger markets are playing in a larger pool that is generally more efficient.

I could go on and on about it. As an ex hedge fund guy I have most of my assets in the market, index based futures with a hedge, with 5% dedicated to 10x 20x type positions.

My tone may sound as if I’m suggesting to shy away from day trading. Not at all, just know what you’re getting into. Also do not consider the current climate as a barometer of investment success. A lot of people have made an insane amount of money this year the same way most millionaires in Vancouver have, riding an irrational bull wave. Be careful.

 

[AMG-GTR]

Prime example.... View attachment 14248

Even Musk said that his valuation is insane.

At the moment, the stock, from a value point of view, is about as irrational as it can possibly get. Extremely for a large cap stock such as this one.

I’m not going to suggest this is a good or a bad investment because we are considering only one factor, which is value.

With that said, I would look at what does the value of the company need to be, for it to line up with the price. In the case of a typical company valuation, let’s consider the arbitrary number of 15X revenue to valuation.

Once we know that number, then the next question is how long will it take to be equal to that value?

I have a model S ludicrous in my garage. It’s a great car. Tesla stock however is not in my portfolio because the price is ludicrous. Will the price keep going up? It shouldn’t, but things keep going up if enough people keep wanting it to, which is why market inefficiency is a very real thing.

Too many people excited about Tesla and Zoom and a pile of other great companies without any regard or understanding for value. Good or not, there are plenty of better investment options.

 

[Metaxa]

Even Musk said that his valuation is insane.

At the moment, the stock, from a value point of view, is about as irrational as it can possibly get. Extremely for a large cap stock such as this one.

I’m not going to suggest this is a good or a bad investment because we are considering only one factor, which is value.

With that said, I would look at what does the value of the company need to be, for it to line up with the price. In the case of a typical company valuation, let’s consider the arbitrary number of 15X revenue to valuation.

Once we know that number, then the next question is how long will it take to be equal to that value?

I have a model S ludicrous in my garage. It’s a great car. Tesla stock however is not in my portfolio because the price is ludicrous. Will the price keep going up? It shouldn’t, but things keep going up if enough people keep wanting it to, which is why market inefficiency is a very real thing.

Too many people excited about Tesla and Zoom and a pile of other great companies without any regard or understanding for value. Good or not, there are plenty of better investment options.

The Robin Hood investor has a lot to do with the bubble. It won’t end well.

 

[keilecpod]

Even Musk said that his valuation is insane.

At the moment, the stock, from a value point of view, is about as irrational as it can possibly get. Extremely for a large cap stock such as this one.

I’m not going to suggest this is a good or a bad investment because we are considering only one factor, which is value.

With that said, I would look at what does the value of the company need to be, for it to line up with the price. In the case of a typical company valuation, let’s consider the arbitrary number of 15X revenue to valuation.

Once we know that number, then the next question is how long will it take to be equal to that value?

I have a model S ludicrous in my garage. It’s a great car. Tesla stock however is not in my portfolio because the price is ludicrous. Will the price keep going up? It shouldn’t, but things keep going up if enough people keep wanting it to, which is why market inefficiency is a very real thing.

Too many people excited about Tesla and Zoom and a pile of other great companies without any regard or understanding for value. Good or not, there are plenty of better investment options.

nowadays, Tesla is just a brand which got pretty famous and it's a "BRAND" literally, that may be the other reason why the valuation is insane...
When it comes to trading and investing, I was really worried that without necessary knowledge I would be totally helpless in case of any problems and obstacles on my way.
Thus, I made a decision to check all trade schools on https://www.onlytradeschools.com/ and chose the best option from the variants provided there. Moreover, I also made a decision to study web developing, Nowadays, those 2 fields are relevant in any firm. Starting trading and investing with all knowledge gained during the studies

 

[PuntMeister]

I’ve decided to continue with a combination of Investing and Trading. Use both strategies, but keep them totally separate.

Put the big money in mutual fund investments and re-balance infrequently.

Put another position in a self-managed investment account to reduce fees and stay connected with the markets. Invest in index ETF’s, and tweak sectors a bit when cycles show direction change.

Put remainder “play money” into a self-managed riskier investment account. Mostly look for value plays about once/day, plus some tech growth stocks, throw in some gold and weed when it’s low. Watch for a run, hold for a while, sell pregressive positions if it does well, don’t stop-loss them—embrace volatility and ride the dips in the surge. The play money has done very well over 2 years, especially the value plays. Bought Blackberry on a low a few weeks ago. It’s tripled. Small position but my little play account is doing just fine. Legalized gambling, but playing the odds like good old Warren Buffet used to. Fun too.

 

[Mr Quim]

I love a Story where the "Small Investors" give the Hedge Fund managers a taste of their own Medicine !

I would love to know who's backing the "Short" in this Scenario ?
In the "The Big Short" it was the Banks running the Short .

Mr Q.

 

[LM987]

Legalized gambling, but playing the odds like good old Warren Buffet used to. Fun too.
[/QUOTE]

Don't forget, you are playing against people who do this for a living and even they get burned. Gamestop is a prime example of how the big boys got nailed this week, but some did make $$. Watch the Series dirty money about the group of people who provide negative press to drive stocks down so they can rake it in.

Have you seen any mutual funds that have turned above average returns in the last 20 years? I've seen a few, but these are often closed accounts that not everyone can get into. MF's are a way for the fund managers to make their MERs off the backs of those who can only invest small amounts in somewhat safe portfolios. ( for the most part).

 

[Big_Guy_Rye]

..basically this is what's happening.

 

[thodisipagal]

Thinking of Day Trading as a new hobby.

Start out with a few hundred bucks and see what happens.

Anyone else into it, if yes, please provide a few tips

Thanks,

Cory

Some good info here: https://youngandthrifty.ca/wealthsimple-trade-vs-questrade/

In the U.S., Robinhood is taking the market by storm, it appears. That's a $0 commission platform, but not available in Canada.

 

[licks2nite]

Proxy for advise. S&P 500 analysed by any number of sources. Readily available DOW Futures tells if market opening up or down. In volitility Canadian market, even individual ETFs turn on a dime with the DOW and S&P 500.

Re: Commission free trading in Canada. Mobile app only. From Wealthsimple Trade forum: Have to keep your own trading records for income tax. 1.5% currency conversion fee both buying & selling US dollar denominated trades. Impression: Wealthsimple Trade a subsidiary of Questrade.

 

[Corym]

I haven't read this thread that I started but will go through the comments.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Cory.

 

[mark670]

the stock market is the casino you when and u lose buy is food stocks can't lose everybody needs eat.