The Porn Dude

A Few questions for the US Administration apologists:

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
I have been following the debate on what should or shouldn’t have been done with some frustration. I have a few questions for those defending the relief efforts so far.

Given:
Hurricane Katrina’s magnitude and devastation caused was greater than anyone could predict; and
The decision not to upgrade the levees was made for a variety of political and financial reasons, and may not have been enough anyway.

Why was disaster relief not moving in immediately on the heel of the storm?
Who made the asinine decision to put thousands in the Superdome without water and portable power?
Why was martial law not declared and security put in place on day one?
Why were minor officials turning back relief convoys on day two and three?
During the evacuation before the storm, why were there not busses and trains laid on to take people out of the area?
Was there any traffic control to ensure that traffic on the freeways was allowed to continue unimpeded?
As soon as the magnitude of the devastation became obvious, why did Bush and Rice not end there vacations immediately? (I believe Cheney is still on vacation)
Why wasn’t the requirement to ground all aircraft during Bush’s “photo op” and suspend
Relief operations reviewed?
And at what point in time did prayer and compassion become a viable substitute for food, water and shelter?
And finally, what are senior officials (Rice) doing attending photo op church services when they should be in their offices kicking ass and taking names?

The world is watching and they are not seeing a pretty picture!

rickoshadows
 

S.G. Gibson

Retired
Dec 29, 2003
375
0
0
Michael Moore couldn't have said it better...

I can take a stab at answering this.

As all of the Anti-Bushers here know the President works for the oil companies not the people. A top secret satellite launched by the Pentagon and paid for by Halliburton Oil detected oil underneath the core of New Orleans. So another Satellite also secretly launched by the Pentagon, paid for by Halliburton, and designed by Osama Bin Laden's cousin fucked up the environment to create a hurricane that precisely struck New Orleans. From there President Bush deliberately delayed relief efforts to ensure that New Orleans would flood permanently so Halliburton can use off-shore platforms to drill for oil. What makes this even more tragic is that the Pentagon has a top secret giant Hoover Vacuum (developed under the Clinton administration of course) that could have sucked up all of the water in five minutes. You may not like Bush but give him all the credit he deserves for his evil genius. Muuhahhahahahahahaha.
 

The Lizard King

New member
Jul 8, 2003
1,272
0
0
Rick, other than thinking you're an asshole because it appears that you actually get to live on Vancouver Island :cool: , I'm always glad to see you weigh in on things but you know how certain people are going to respond. The LDs and Dittmans of the world will spin an opinion blaming The Mayor and, somehow, Clinton. In Dittman's case, he'll somehow find a way to get Hussein in there too. What they really want to say is, "too bad those black people are so stupid, didn't they listen to the warning to get their black asses out of there? Hey, and what about that black Mayor? That'll teach 'em for not electing a good, God-fearing whitey". That's exactly what they WANT to say even though the real answers are obvious.

Anyway, keep up the good work. While I may not agree with everything you say, I do appreciate your input.
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
The Lizard King said:
Rick, other than thinking you're an asshole because it appears that you actually get to live on Vancouver Island
Guilty as charged :)

Actually, I'm looking forward to LD's response. He's not so right wing as his rhetoric would have you believe. He wants many of the same things I do, but has belief that conservative politics will get him there and is willing to take the baggage that goes with it. I don't think liberal politics will get me where I want to go, but at least I can live with their baggage. Dittman, on the other hand is just asswipe doing a poor job of masquerading as a human being!

rickoshadows
 

georgebushmoron

jus call me MR. President
Mar 25, 2003
3,126
2
0
56
Seattle
rickoshadows said:
Actually, I'm looking forward to LD's response. He's not so right wing as his rhetoric would have you believe. He wants many of the same things I do, but has belief that conservative politics will get him there and is willing to take the baggage that goes with it. I don't think liberal politics will get me where I want to go, but at least I can live with their baggage. Dittman, on the other hand is just asswipe doing a poor job of masquerading as a human being!

rickoshadows
And don't forget yours truly GBM, who can make a Nazi look like a commie girl scout.
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
georgebushmoron said:
And don't forget yours truly GBM, who can make a Nazi look like a commie girl scout.
Naah, deep down you're a bleeding heart liberal acting all conservative and tough so daddy won't wup your ass.

Or, wasn't I supposed to spoil all the fun for those who aren't getting it?

rickoshadows
 

luckydog71

Active member
Oct 26, 2003
1,117
0
36
75
Washington State
rickoshadows said:
I have been following the debate on what should or shouldn’t have been done with some frustration. I have a few questions for those defending the relief efforts so far.rickoshadows
No one is defending the relief efforts. In my opinion they were very late starting. They should have started 2 or 3 days before the storm hit



rickoshadows said:
Given:
Hurricane Katrina’s magnitude and devastation caused was greater than anyone could predict; and
The decision not to upgrade the levees was made for a variety of political and financial reasons, and may not have been enough anyway.
rickoshadows
Actually, I think it was known what would happen if a cat 5 storm hit N.O. Which makes the lack of an effective plan even more iresponsible


rickoshadows said:
Why was disaster relief not moving in immediately on the heel of the storm?
rickoshadows
I can only bases my answer on what I have seen on TV. The storm hit a 150 mile area. It appears different areas had different levels of effective response. I have to assume some communities had put a plan in place to deal with the sitiation. It would appear N.O. did not.


rickoshadows said:
Who made the asinine decision to put thousands in the Superdome without water and portable power?
rickoshadows
My guess is this was a temporary refuge from a storm expected to pass over in a few hours. Like hiding under an over pass. I would guess the plan was once the storm pass the people would leave the dome



rickoshadows said:
Why was martial law not declared and security put in place on day one?
rickoshadows
I do not know. That would have been a smart move. A smarter move would have been to declare marshall law 2 days before it hit and enfore evacuation


rickoshadows said:
Why were minor officials turning back relief convoys on day two and three?
rickoshadows
NFI. I do know there were people shooting at the rescuers and operations were suspened for a while until the area was secured.

rickoshadows said:
During the evacuation before the storm, why were there not busses and trains laid on to take people out of the area?
rickoshadows
This should have been done even if it meant physical removal of the many that refused to go


rickoshadows said:
Was there any traffic control to ensure that traffic on the freeways was allowed to continue unimpeded?
rickoshadows
I understand both sides of I10 were tunred into one-way roads leading in-land


rickoshadows said:
As soon as the magnitude of the devastation became obvious, why did Bush and Rice not end there vacations immediately? (I believe Cheney is still on vacation)
rickoshadows
Rice is not important to this problem, but Bush is. He was off vacation, but in Arizona. What was missing was a leader like Rudy J. That person never did emerge even to this day.


rickoshadows said:
Why wasn’t the requirement to ground all aircraft during Bush’s “photo op” and suspend
rickoshadows
Did not know that happened.


rickoshadows said:
And at what point in time did prayer and compassion become a viable substitute for food, water and shelter?
rickoshadows
who said it was?



rickoshadows said:
And finally, what are senior officials (Rice) doing attending photo op church services when they should be in their offices kicking ass and taking names?
rickoshadows
Again Rice is Secretary of State and not the one that should step in. It is the head of Home Land Security




*******************
So Rick let me ask you a couple of questions
Why is there so much chaos in N.O. and other city hit harder were better organized?

How many Americans do you think would want Bush (or any President) to step in and take over local government? That is what many Bush Bashers are advocating. First response is a local responsibility and I like it that way.


Bush made mistakes here. In my opinion he was 1 to 2 days late in mobilizing federal forces and his delayed action caused deaths.

The death toll would be a lot lower had the mayor and governor cleared the city. It was a known fact, if a cat 5 storm hit N.O. the lake would flood into the city. Why did they not enforce evacuation. They could have cleared the city with busses commandeered under marshal law.
 

dittman

New member
Jan 22, 2003
730
0
0
76
seattle
there has been nobody in this thread or anyother thread that i am aware of that hasnt said from gwb on down it was a massive screwup on the part of the federal govt. I dont think anybody would argue any differently, however where we part company is when we assess blame further on down the govermental food chain. If the city, county(a.k.a parrish) and state would have taken care of business the way they were suppose to do the loss of life would have been minimized. o.k. for you semi intellectuals of the looney left let me repeat myself it was a massive and grotesque fuck up on the part of the federal government from gwb on down.

However the looney left mind cannot for whatever reason accept that the fact that the city, county,and state, all 3 run by the democrats, 2 of them black massively fucked up themselves. If that makes me a right winger or an apologist so be it, i wear that name tag with honor.
 

HankQuinlan

I dont re Member
Sep 7, 2002
1,744
6
0
victoria
dittman said:
there has been nobody in this thread or anyother thread that i am aware of that hasnt said from gwb on down it was a massive screwup on the part of the federal govt. I dont think anybody would argue any differently, however where we part company is when we assess blame further on down the govermental food chain. If the city, county(a.k.a parrish) and state would have taken care of business the way they were suppose to do the loss of life would have been minimized. o.k. for you semi intellectuals of the looney left let me repeat myself it was a massive and grotesque fuck up on the part of the federal government from gwb on down.

However the looney left mind cannot for whatever reason accept that the fact that the city, county,and state, all 3 run by the democrats, 2 of them black massively fucked up themselves. If that makes me a right winger or an apologist so be it, i wear that name tag with honor.

Give up the LOONEY LEFT crap. Anyone left of Atilla the Hun is part of the "Looney Left", apparently. And, once again, pointing out that two of the three local politicians who fucked up are black is racist, even if you can't see it. Do you wear that badge with honour as well? But as a white liberal vermin, I guess I just don't understand that people should be judged on their actions, not the colour of their skin. If only you could get rid of all those people that think like me (and the blacks, apparently), your country would be a paradise.
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
luckydog71 said:
Why is there so much chaos in N.O. and other city hit harder were better organized?.
I think there would have been more chaos in NOLA in any case, it is below sea level.

luckydog71 said:
How many Americans do you think would want Bush (or any President) to step in and take over local government? That is what many Bush Bashers are advocating. First response is a local responsibility and I like it that way.
Probably everyone who didn't have the resources to help themselves, but you wouldn't hear about them normally as they have no voice in the American political system. "Local responsibility" is a joke. You can not assign responsibility with providing the resources to fullfill it. Besides, isn't a large percentage of La. resources (read Natinal Guard) in Iraq right now?

luckydog71 said:
Bush made mistakes here.
Agreed.

luckydog71 said:
The death toll would be a lot lower had the mayor and governor cleared the city. It was a known fact, if a cat 5 storm hit N.O. the lake would flood into the city. Why did they not enforce evacuation. They could have cleared the city with busses commandeered under marshal law.
As someone has indicated, American Law and procedures prevent this kind of action. Planning should have been carried out accordingly. Perhaps, in the future, more rational disaster planning will occur. That is if the too pwerfull NRA an their ilk don't oppose any reform on the basis that it threatens their constitutional freedom. Perhaps with their right to bear arms, they could enact the right not to have their weapons stolen and used against them?

rickoshadows
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
luckydog71 said:
Rice is not important to this problem,

Again Rice is Secretary of State and not the one that should step in. It is the head of Home Land Security
Ok, Rice is just there for a photo op.

Now, Where is this person? And why do I not see her mug on CNN?



rickoshadows
 

dittman

New member
Jan 22, 2003
730
0
0
76
seattle
hank, let me explain something to you. wehave something down here in america that might be a foreign concept in canada, and its called free speech. its even protected under our constitution. you ought to try it its pretty neat. But if you check out all the threads it was people of your political bent that brought up the issue of race, so it is very important to point out the fact that one of the reasons for all the deaths was inadequat olanning and action by the local officials, 2 of whom happen to be black, so the question must be asked are they racist to?

LD no need to discuss anything of substance with the looney left they have never let the facts get in the way of their arguments. That is why they are wrong the majority of the time.

rick what the hell does the nra have to do anything? typical looney cheap shot. keep your mind focus. stay on message. even though you message is weird.
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
dittman said:
rick what the hell does the nra have to do anything? typical looney cheap shot. keep your mind focus. stay on message. even though you message is weird.
The point was that conservative groups (of which NRA is only one) would oppose any expansion of federal powers to enable the federal goverment to act unilaterally in cases such as this.

The right to bear arms is also part of the reason there are pissed off people brandishing rifles and taking pot shots at rescue workers. Besides having a pistol inyour waist band for self-defence and defence of your property is pretty stupid when you're trying to defend against an gang armed with stolen automatic rifles.

After the events which have unfolded in the south, law and order will take a long time to return to what it was, if ever. And with the state of politics in the US, I doubt that the issues underlying this fiasco will get solved before the next disaster/tragedy occurs.

rickoshadows
 

luckydog71

Active member
Oct 26, 2003
1,117
0
36
75
Washington State
rickoshadows said:
The point was that conservative groups (of which NRA is only one) would oppose any expansion of federal powers to enable the federal government to act unilaterally in cases such as this.
rickoshadows
Actually Ricko, I do oppose the expansion of federal powers. I fear what is coming is the Dept of Planning and Response for Natural Disasters. Decisions better made at the local level will be usurp by a huge federal agencies (FEMA on steroids) and it will be as ineffective.

The people who live in a community and the local politicians are the best equipped people to plan for a natural disaster and are the best equipped for the initial response.

The federal gov’t definitely has a role. It needs to be the bankroll to offset the catastrophic costs. I do not mean they should rebuild 10 houses because they side down a hill. They need to finance the rebuilding of the infrastructure. The people of the US will provide huge sums of money to help the people of N.O. rebuild their houses.

I have posed a hypothetical question a few times and it has gone unanswered:

A Tsunami is heading for Seattle. It is expected to hit in 36 hours.

In the sole opinion of the President of the United States the mayor and governor are not doing enough to evacuate.

The governor has not declared marshal law.

The federal gov’t steps in with troops and first responders. They usurp the authority of local and state gov’t. They take over the police duties. They forcibly evacuate the entire city. They force those who do not want to leave, to leave.

This is the scenario you seem to be advocating and I disagree. I want local officials to be in charge. If federal resources are needed, military or civilian, they need to come under the direct control of the local officials.

My federal gov’t has way too much power right now. I do not want them to have any more.
 

The Lizard King

New member
Jul 8, 2003
1,272
0
0
However the looney left mind cannot for whatever reason accept that the fact that the city, county,and state, all 3 run by the democrats, 2 of them black massively fucked up themselves.
No, no, no, Ranger, you missed Doltman's point entirely. It's that their black AND their Democrats!!!!
 

The Lizard King

New member
Jul 8, 2003
1,272
0
0
LD, your Tsunami-hitting-Seattle example is ridiculous. Short of raising your taxes through the roof to afford the resources, local governments would never be able to cope with something of that magnitude and shouldn't even try. Especially evacuating those who are unable to get themselves out, as your country has learned this week. If your local authorities didn't immediately hand over preparation, relief, and rescue operations to the federal agencies designed to handle large scale catastrophes, they would be doing you a grave disservice and the feds should step in for the greater good. Removing those who wish not to be removed is part of the deal. Imagine the outcry if some fed came out and said "we'll get to those people who made the decision to stay last as it was their choice". It would be like suggesting they leave people hanging because their race or social standing, and according to Zitman, their politics. Oops.


I agree, the feds in both of our countries have too much power but this is one area I would gladly let them control.
 

rickoshadows

Just another member!
May 11, 2002
902
0
16
66
Vancouver Island
luckydog71 said:
I have posed a hypothetical question a few times and it has gone unanswered:

A Tsunami is heading for Seattle. It is expected to hit in 36 hours.

In the sole opinion of the President of the United States the mayor and governor are not doing enough to evacuate.

The governor has not declared marshal law.

The federal gov’t steps in with troops and first responders. They usurp the authority of local and state gov’t. They take over the police duties. They forcibly evacuate the entire city. They force those who do not want to leave, to leave.
The answer is: We both elect and pay people to make this decision. We then second guess them after the fact. In the meantime these individuals have a temendous amount of power, prestige and perks. This is what their job is. Had these actions been implemented in New Orlaens, how many would have second guessed it. No decision is entirely risk free, but to sit back and wait, as just happened costs thousands of lives. The price of being unprepared is measured in lives not the dollars you seem to worship.

As LK stated, had your local state and municipal governments raised the resources to respond by increasing your taxes the requisite amount, you would be squealing like a stuck pig.

In any case, comand and control has to be assigned to the organization most capable (or capable at all) to do the job. Anything less is a betrayal of the trust your citizens have placed in their goverment.

rickoshadows
 

Fudd

Banned
Apr 30, 2004
1,037
0
0
Design of Levees

I'm not sure about the design code in that region but the levee may have been designed for a 1 in 200 to 300 year flood, storm, quake etc.... The design was meant to withstand the most probable events. Katrina, a Category 4 storm exceeded their design. It would be too costly to design everthing to withstand the extreme events.
 

wildonion

New member
Jul 11, 2004
138
0
0
61
rickoshadows said:
I have a few questions for those defending the relief efforts so far....
You're asking the wrong people. These nutsos live in a fantasy world unencumbered by anything resembling reality.

"They're feeding the people a line of bull, and they are spinning and people are dying," as Nagin said.


FEMA Chief Waited Until After Storm Hit
By TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ONSE?SITE=SCFLO&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&SECTION=HOME

The government's disaster chief waited until hours after Hurricane Katrina had already struck the Gulf Coast before asking his boss to dispatch 1,000 Homeland Security employees to the region — and gave them two days to arrive, according to internal documents.

Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Mike Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29. Brown said that among duties of these employees was to "convey a positive image" about the government's response for victims.

Before then, FEMA had positioned smaller rescue and communications teams across the Gulf Coast. But officials acknowledged Tuesday the first department-wide appeal for help came only as the storm raged.

Andrew Sullivan who's hardly a liberal, is furious http://www.andrewsullivan.com/

"I'm trying to think of what this event means in the national psyche. The complete collapse of effective government and of emergency procedures four years after 9/11 mean only one thing. We do not have an administration capable of running the country during the war on terror. They have bungled homeland security; they have mismanaged Iraq; they have dropped the ball in New Orleans. In each case, a conservative government does not seem to understand that law and order are always, always, the first priority. The glib self-congratulation of government official after official made me retch listening to them”

Sullivan also rips "the blithering idiot, Michael 'heck of a job' Brown, hired with no credentials to run a critical agency at a time of national peril. I guess some of us pundits bear the blame. We should have known that someone who had been fired for being unable to run an Arabian Horse Association had the job of responding to a national disaster in the war on terror. He was hired because a Bush crony, Joe Allbaugh (also hired because he was a major Bush fundraiser) liked him. The good ol' boy network at its most brazen. If the president wants to recover even a little from what has happened to his reputation, he has to fire Brown. Now. That's the test of whether he gets it. Not his furrowed brow press conferences. Not his spin. Not the desperate attempts by Republican partisans -- once again! -- to blame someone else down the chain of command."

The Wall Street Journal editorial
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007213
cuts Bush little slack, saying that "the aftermath of Katrina poses a threat to his entire second term . .

"Mr. Bush is going to have to recognize the obvious initial failure of the Department of Homeland Security in its first big post-9/11 test. The President created this latest huge federal bureaucracy, against the advice of many of us, and we're still waiting for evidence that it has done anything but reshuffle the Beltway furniture. If FEMA can't now handle the diaspora out of New Orleans to Houston, Baton Rouge and other cities, the political retribution will be fierce."

Frank Rich http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/opinion/04rich.html
"From the president's administration's inattention to threats before 9/11 to his disappearing act on the day itself to the reckless blundering in the ill-planned war of choice that was 9/11's bastard offspring, Katrina is d�j� vu with a vengeance.

"The president's declaration that 'I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees' has instantly achieved the notoriety of Condoleezza Rice's 'I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center.' The administration's complete obliviousness to the possibilities for energy failures, food and water deprivation, and civil disorder in a major city under siege needs only the Donald Rumsfeld punch line of 'Stuff happens' for a coup de gr�ce. How about shared sacrifice, so that this time we might get the job done right? After Mr. Bush's visit on 'Good Morning America' on Thursday, Diane Sawyer reported on a post-interview conversation in which he said, 'There won't have to be tax increases.' . . .

A visibly exasperated Shepard Smith, covering the story on the ground in Louisiana, went further still, tossing hand grenades of harsh reality into Bill O'Reilly's usually spin-shellacked "No Spin Zone." Among other hard facts, Mr. Smith noted "that the haves of this city, the movers and shakers of this city, evacuated the city either immediately before or immediately after the storm." What he didn't have to say, since it was visible to the entire world, was that it was the poor who were left behind to drown.

"Surely it's only a matter of time before Mr. Chertoff and the equally at sea FEMA director, Michael Brown (who also was among the last to hear about the convention center), are each awarded a Presidential Medal of Freedom in line with past architects of lethal administration calamity like George Tenet and Paul Bremer."

New Yorker Editor David Remnick http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?050912ta_talk_remnick

"To a frightening degree, Bush's faults of leadership and character were brought into high relief by the crisis. Suntanned and relaxed after a vacation so long that it would have shamed a French playboy, Bush reacted with fogged delinquency, as if he had been so lulled by his summer sojourn that he was not quite ready to acknowledge reality, let alone attempt to master it. His first view of the floods came, pitifully, theatrically, from the window of a low-flying Air Force One, and all the President could muster was, according to his press secretary, 'It's devastating. It's got to be doubly devastating on the ground.' The moment demanded clarity of mind and rigorous governance, and yet he could not summon them. The performance skills Bush eventually mustered after September 11th -- in his bullhorn speech at Ground Zero, in his first speech to Congress -- eluded him.

"The whole conceit of his Presidency, that he was an instinctive chief executive backed by 'grown-ups' like Dick Cheney and tactical wizards like Karl Rove, now seemed as water-logged as Biloxi and New Orleans. The mismanagement of the Katrina floods echoed the White House mismanagement -- the cavalier posture, the wretched decisions, the self-delusions -- in postwar Iraq."

Just as serious, the President’s priorities, his indifference to questions of infrastructure and the environment, magnified an already complicated disaster. In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army Corps of Engineers’ funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million, delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees. Former Republican congressman Michael Parker was forced out as the head of the Corps by Bush in 2002 when he dared to protest the lack of proper funding.

Similarly, the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which is supposed to improve drainage and pumping systems in the New Orleans area, recently asked for $62.5 million; the White House proposed $10.5 million. Former Louisiana Senator John Breaux, a pro-Bush Democrat, said, “All of us said, ‘Look, build it or you’re going to have all of Jefferson Parish under water.’ And they didn’t, and now all of Jefferson Parish is under water.”


Josh Marshall http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2005_09_04.php#006410

"It's almost awe-inspiring to see the level of energy and coordination the Bush White House can bring to bear in a genuine crisis. Not hurricane Katrina, of course, but the political crisis they now find rising around them . . . The storyline and the outlines of the attack are now clear: pin the blame for the debacle on state and local authorities . . .

"This whole conversation we're having now is not about substance, but procedural niceties , excuses which it is beyond shameful for an American president to invoke in such a circumstance. We don't live in the 19th century. All you really needed was a subscription to basic cable to know almost all of the relevant details (at least relevant to know what sort of assistance was needed) about what was happening late last week. The president and his advisors want to duck responsibility by claiming, in so many words, that the Louisiana authorities didn't fill out the right forms. So what they're trying to pull is something like a DMV nightmare on steroids."
 
Ashley Madison
Vancouver Escorts