Prostitution a victimless crime?
- Thread starter rockinbods35
- Start date
That depends... on whether you are willing to take responsibility as a member of the society which victimizes those involved in prostitution long before Johns ever get anywhere near to them.
Your impulse to somehow cut down on prostitution is akin to bringing double jeopardy onto these people which you, as a member of society, have already victimized once.
You as a member of this society prequalified these people for a job not everybody can stand. Your next impulse is to prevent them from the option of gaining at least something monetary from your having prequalified them for the position.
Why is it kosher for North American governments to pay monetary sums to Aboriginal people to somehow atone for wrongs done long ago (as if that really mitigates the wrongs) while at the same time they frown on once-abused children they themselves helped to abuse, knowing the means through which to make what can be a fairly decent income at a job that society qualified them to do in the first place?
Our ancient ancestors wronged your ancient ancestors... so here, please enjoy this fantasmic casino, and the decent incomes you can earn working there every day, as our way of making it up to you.
We ourselves abused you as a society, but we'll be damned if we're going to let you have the option of at least paying your bills as some small consolation for what we put you through.
It would be so telling to know about ... before 16. Though perhaps not publicly.
Wow this thread is great. Over the years I too have wondered about it. I am very careful of the ladies I see. I try very hard to keep away from the dark side. But I do peek into the dark side every once in a while. Not pretty.
Over the years I have met some amazing ladies who were in bad situations. I will not go into thier life stories but they all were very good people who were not into any heavy adictions. They loved thier kids and they were desperate. Like the ladies here have pointed out they found this world though someone they knew.
I have not looked at them as victims just people trying to make a go of it. No different than me. I too was where they are now. I feel I give them something they want and they give me something I want. No different than any other entertainer. Be it a singer, or sports star. I pay they play for me. This just includes sex.
Look at Erika as an example. Although she does not have children, that I know of, she is a great lady in a bad situation. So was April, Shelly, Kimberly, Rio, Laura, Jenna, Helena. They came into my life at a certain point and provided me with a connection I needed and wanted, and in exchange for that I treated them very well. They treated me very well. Each was special and none of them were crack heads, or forced into the business by pimps. It was a choice that they made. Now all of them are out of the business except Jenna and Helena who I see is still out there. But I would not say they are victims. Of course only they can say if they are victims. Now a few are still pissed at me for what I did to them. I showed them a world that they will not own. Or so I am told. But should a child be upset for you taking them to Disneyland because that is not the real world and they can not live there? Nor should these ladies feel that they are victims. I guess you can say I used them but you can also say they used me to get things that they would not have or ever get. In the end we both have good and bad to look back on. My hope is that the women I have spent time will remember me in a positive way just as I remember them in a positive way.
So I would not say it is a crime or that we are victims unless we make ourself victims.
There are so many great comments on here that had me thinking I just had to respond to the great thread. This is one of the reasons that I keep my noise in PERB. So many thougths and so little time to write them down.
Over the years I have met some amazing ladies who were in bad situations. I will not go into thier life stories but they all were very good people who were not into any heavy adictions. They loved thier kids and they were desperate. Like the ladies here have pointed out they found this world though someone they knew.
I have not looked at them as victims just people trying to make a go of it. No different than me. I too was where they are now. I feel I give them something they want and they give me something I want. No different than any other entertainer. Be it a singer, or sports star. I pay they play for me. This just includes sex.
Look at Erika as an example. Although she does not have children, that I know of, she is a great lady in a bad situation. So was April, Shelly, Kimberly, Rio, Laura, Jenna, Helena. They came into my life at a certain point and provided me with a connection I needed and wanted, and in exchange for that I treated them very well. They treated me very well. Each was special and none of them were crack heads, or forced into the business by pimps. It was a choice that they made. Now all of them are out of the business except Jenna and Helena who I see is still out there. But I would not say they are victims. Of course only they can say if they are victims. Now a few are still pissed at me for what I did to them. I showed them a world that they will not own. Or so I am told. But should a child be upset for you taking them to Disneyland because that is not the real world and they can not live there? Nor should these ladies feel that they are victims. I guess you can say I used them but you can also say they used me to get things that they would not have or ever get. In the end we both have good and bad to look back on. My hope is that the women I have spent time will remember me in a positive way just as I remember them in a positive way.
So I would not say it is a crime or that we are victims unless we make ourself victims.
There are so many great comments on here that had me thinking I just had to respond to the great thread. This is one of the reasons that I keep my noise in PERB. So many thougths and so little time to write them down.
ound: again your assumptions. i know i seem well spoken and am now doing really well in my life,but you are wrong about my experiences. i worked on the street and lived in the hotels in the DTES. i had 4 heart attacks overdosing on coke and even did heroine. i had a pimp...briefly....long story... but was also involved in a huge pimp family, there was violence and abuse, it was a complete gong show.
i have never said these things don't happen, they do. i have witnessed it, i have experienced it. i am simply stating that it does not happen to the degree the abolitionists would have you believe.
remember the 40,000 human trafficking victims for the olympics? where were they? nowhere. 63 raids and countless deportations and not one trafficking victim.
blaming the sex industry for the dangerous working conditions that only exist becuase of criminalization, it ludicris. if we had occupational health and safety, a human right, labour standards and greater availibility of work in safe, ethical indoor environments these problems would not evolve.
to be clear, i am not saying it doesn't happen, it does. and i know its easy to assume i am a wealthy privleged sex workers with no lived experience of risk, but i am not. try to understand. i am not trying to justify abuse, i am trying to balance perspectives on our lives. make sense?
love susie
with all due repsect and thankyou,
if you read the thousands of pages of writing we have done on this very subject, it is not a rosy picture at all. the occupational health and safety material very clearly describes the potential for violence along with alot of other critical information. here www.tradesecretsguide.blogspot.com
also, on our blog, www.bccec.blogspot.com where for example the report, "from the curb" goes into great detail about violence and domestic trafficking here http://bccec.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/final-report-violence_and_domestic_trafficking_bccew.pdf
no one is trying to paint a rosy picture, but it also doesn't help anyone to view us all as victims of abuse in need of rescue. this is how the abolitionists attack us now. they exclude our voices because we are to traumatized and victimized, we couldn't possible know what's best for us. they exclude sex buyers by stating you are all rapist masogynists who hate women.
this alarmist propoganda is misleading and is contributing to the very problems we are discussing.
love susie
simple answer, criminalization, lack of health and safety, no labour standards, no liveable welfare rates, not enough support services, lack of jobs availible indoors...i could go on....
when sex workers are in crisis they don't have the same supports that are availible to members of the mainstream community. let's not forget that nurses, lawyers and many other professionals can also go down the dark path of addiction. it is not exclusive to the sex industry. but sex workers are closely studied and scrutinized, more so than almost any other group in this country unlike these other groups and so we hear alot more about it.
the fact is though that this is a converstion about addiction and abuse, not sex work. should we fight to end those things? yes. can you as a sex consumer do something when you witness it? yes. call crime stoppers, call lynda malcom, call sister watch. its confidential.
love susie
Thanks Susie I had no idea of the people like lynda or sister watch. How does one reach them if needed? Just a search on the internet I guess.
I am impressed that you pulled yourself out of that nightmare. Takes a great deal of commitment to yourself. It might seem strange from a guy that has never met you but I am proud of you. Now if they are going to do a movie on someone it would appear to me you would be a much better candidate.
All the best in 2013.
I just want to thank everyone for their contribution to this thread. There have been some very good points made, and it has stimulated some great discussion on an issue in which we are intimately involved both as SP's and pooners.
I just don't understand why on the one hand society condems the practice of prostitution, but those same people condeming it are also utilizing it's services. Seems rather hypocritical to me...but then so few things in this world aren't anymore are they?
I just don't understand why on the one hand society condems the practice of prostitution, but those same people condeming it are also utilizing it's services. Seems rather hypocritical to me...but then so few things in this world aren't anymore are they?
if prostitution is the oldest profession on earth, then prostitute bashing is the second oldest
as for hypocrites - that's number 3
I agree with the post mentioning that many other jobs are hard on the soul.
I know a few nurses who have become addicted to drugs they originally took to combat long hours, make them more insensitive to the problems on the job, and sometimes to endure pain of previous back injuries. Several nurses I know who are no longer able to work seem to have developed mental illnesses...whether they already had mental illness before, or developed this during, who knows? Nursing is an honoured profession and we only see the bright and heroic side of their lives. Has anyone done a documentary on what they endure, for roughly $32,000 per year?
As to whether prostitution causes drug addiction, I have to wonder if these women you are referring to were in any other job: waitressing, or bar tending, or real estate agent, would they be drug addicts? Probably. The tendency toward drug addiction can be heavily influenced by having a previously existing mental illness, like bi-polar disorder, ADD, and the like.
I certainly have known many waitresses at clubs to snort coke in the bathroom on breaks, and many of these women never quit waitressing; they continue until they are too old to stand. Real estate agents? I know a good many of these and they can party hard. Does being a real estate agent contribute to drug addiction? How about flight attendants? Women who are hired to look pretty and point in different directions of the cabin during the pre-flight demo, and then walk around serving drinks (and pseudo food). I grew up babysitting for many of these women and they were pretty wild, too; even back in the sixties and seventies. Do you know how many flight attendants and real estate agents end up in rehab?
Why is it when we include sex in the qualifications for the job, it suddenly becomes a shameful and demeaning profession? What is wrong with good old sex, when the participant is a consenting adult?
I have met women in the biz who hate what they do, and it shows. They feel ashamed because their sexual history has been filled with abuse before they got into the industry. Drug abuse and self loathing were already in place long before they hit their twenties.
Not all abused women become prostitutes. Some of these women become nurses and real estate agents and flight attendants, (and many other careers); these are the ones who are capable of showing up for a shift; however, many of these abused women turn to prostitution because they can work when they are feeling well and take time off when things get bad. There is a co-relation between abuse and mental illness.
I have met a good many women who love the biz and treat their bodies with respect. They also demand respect from their clients. They squirrel away the money and invest well. They may never leave this business because it is convenient for them, even if they are working a day job. Why is it ok to work as a waitress until you are seventy, but not as a prostitute? Even Xaviera Hollander, who once averred that working as a prostitute past your thirties meant you were some kind of loser, has reversed her stance. (maybe because she is now in her seventies?)
Blowing the money. Is there a difference between a prostitute who fritters her money away, from any other woman (or man) in any other career? When you pay your realtor her percentage are you sure she is not going to party for a weekend and blow a lot of that up her nose? Is it your problem? How about a lawyer? I once had a client who was a lawyer and he lost his home and his family due to a substance abuse problem. Did his career as a criminal defense lawyer contribute to that? Should his clients feel bad for hiring him and paying him the money that allowed him to live that lifestyle?
I enjoyed the thirty odd years I spent working on and off as a prostitute. It was, to me, more like an entertainment industry. I loved dressing up and really enjoyed the interaction. I was never into drugs, or drinking, or even smoking and almost always had another job. I could choose my clients and I chose well. I have to say that during a financial crisis in my life this biz was a saviour; I would never have gotten by without it. During that crisis I met other women in the biz who were going through the same crap. Women who wanted to be with their children and not have to farm them to daycare while they worked a low wage job trying to get back on their feet. I also met young women who did put themselves through university and went on to other careers...you don't hear those stories because they don't take out a page in the Sun to announce it...they just, quietly, leave.
It always surprises me that the very men who are using the services of a prostitute will say, when mentioning a woman who has left the industry: "Good on her" or words to that affect. It is a very good indicator of the state of a man's own sexual/mental health.
Consensual sex is not bad!
In the end, with any job or career, the bottom line is: I have something that will benefit you and you have something that will benefit me.
I know a few nurses who have become addicted to drugs they originally took to combat long hours, make them more insensitive to the problems on the job, and sometimes to endure pain of previous back injuries. Several nurses I know who are no longer able to work seem to have developed mental illnesses...whether they already had mental illness before, or developed this during, who knows? Nursing is an honoured profession and we only see the bright and heroic side of their lives. Has anyone done a documentary on what they endure, for roughly $32,000 per year?
As to whether prostitution causes drug addiction, I have to wonder if these women you are referring to were in any other job: waitressing, or bar tending, or real estate agent, would they be drug addicts? Probably. The tendency toward drug addiction can be heavily influenced by having a previously existing mental illness, like bi-polar disorder, ADD, and the like.
I certainly have known many waitresses at clubs to snort coke in the bathroom on breaks, and many of these women never quit waitressing; they continue until they are too old to stand. Real estate agents? I know a good many of these and they can party hard. Does being a real estate agent contribute to drug addiction? How about flight attendants? Women who are hired to look pretty and point in different directions of the cabin during the pre-flight demo, and then walk around serving drinks (and pseudo food). I grew up babysitting for many of these women and they were pretty wild, too; even back in the sixties and seventies. Do you know how many flight attendants and real estate agents end up in rehab?
Why is it when we include sex in the qualifications for the job, it suddenly becomes a shameful and demeaning profession? What is wrong with good old sex, when the participant is a consenting adult?
I have met women in the biz who hate what they do, and it shows. They feel ashamed because their sexual history has been filled with abuse before they got into the industry. Drug abuse and self loathing were already in place long before they hit their twenties.
Not all abused women become prostitutes. Some of these women become nurses and real estate agents and flight attendants, (and many other careers); these are the ones who are capable of showing up for a shift; however, many of these abused women turn to prostitution because they can work when they are feeling well and take time off when things get bad. There is a co-relation between abuse and mental illness.
I have met a good many women who love the biz and treat their bodies with respect. They also demand respect from their clients. They squirrel away the money and invest well. They may never leave this business because it is convenient for them, even if they are working a day job. Why is it ok to work as a waitress until you are seventy, but not as a prostitute? Even Xaviera Hollander, who once averred that working as a prostitute past your thirties meant you were some kind of loser, has reversed her stance. (maybe because she is now in her seventies?)
Blowing the money. Is there a difference between a prostitute who fritters her money away, from any other woman (or man) in any other career? When you pay your realtor her percentage are you sure she is not going to party for a weekend and blow a lot of that up her nose? Is it your problem? How about a lawyer? I once had a client who was a lawyer and he lost his home and his family due to a substance abuse problem. Did his career as a criminal defense lawyer contribute to that? Should his clients feel bad for hiring him and paying him the money that allowed him to live that lifestyle?
I enjoyed the thirty odd years I spent working on and off as a prostitute. It was, to me, more like an entertainment industry. I loved dressing up and really enjoyed the interaction. I was never into drugs, or drinking, or even smoking and almost always had another job. I could choose my clients and I chose well. I have to say that during a financial crisis in my life this biz was a saviour; I would never have gotten by without it. During that crisis I met other women in the biz who were going through the same crap. Women who wanted to be with their children and not have to farm them to daycare while they worked a low wage job trying to get back on their feet. I also met young women who did put themselves through university and went on to other careers...you don't hear those stories because they don't take out a page in the Sun to announce it...they just, quietly, leave.
It always surprises me that the very men who are using the services of a prostitute will say, when mentioning a woman who has left the industry: "Good on her" or words to that affect. It is a very good indicator of the state of a man's own sexual/mental health.
Consensual sex is not bad!
In the end, with any job or career, the bottom line is: I have something that will benefit you and you have something that will benefit me.
I've said that. I've said it about prostitutes who have 'retired', but I've said it about many other people from other walks of life. Sometimes your job consumes you, and only others can see it. When a job, any job, robs you of free time, family and friends - just work and only work, then it is time to get out.
When someone is a high-income earner, they become accustomed to that income and cannot imagine themselves without it. They then become a chained to their job and feel enslaved and bitter.
So yeah, I've said it, but I don't think that it reflects poorly on my own mental health.
Thanks for starting this thread. I signed in to create a new one, but this seems within the vein of what I wanted to say.
I am a resident of the north end of vancouver island. Selection of SP's is INCREDIBLY slim compared to that of Victoria or the lower mainland. Here, selection is not so much a matter of choosing what or whom is right for you than the lesser of the evils.
I've been involved in the 'hobby' for about 5 years, but in a limited capacity. The title of my new thread was going to be 'The fantasy VS reality'.
Saw a SP last night; and though I would like to post a review to help others, it seems like a moral conundrum. Found her on CL (ads still pop up there on w4m for a brief period before they're flagged). Sounded like a standard SP ad; '24 y/o, tiny, cute, and blonde'.
Traded a couple e-mails and got a pic - looked very cute.
When she showed up, she was a weak representation of the girl in the photo. Obviously the same person, but must have gone through a lot of shit between the time the photo was taken and the time I saw her. Long story short - had sex, AWESOME bj, and the chat in the meantime was a little awkward. She offered me prescription drugs that her friend was selling, and proffered no air of confidence through the whole experience.
The fantastic thoughts that I always have in my mind when arranging an encounter are of a girl who loves sex and pleasing others, chooses their own schedule, and enjoys a comfortable lifestyle from their talents. I left this experience feeling like I'd validated someone's dead-end lifestyle and worried that I'd exposed myself to infection. The counter-point is that she seemed like a very nice person; eager to please, friendly and awkwardly outgoing. She asked numerous times if she was what I expected. While she wasn't quite, I said yes. I didn't want to have to be the one to tell a 24 year old that she was letting herself go.
So. Here's my problem. My hunting for SP encounters is controlled by my libido, not the rational part of my brain that can assess many parameters and make an informed decision over a period of time. With the limited and untested selection near where I live, listening to the wrong head can lead to some bad decisions. In a perfect world, I'd only see talented, attractive, drug-free SP's that enjoyed their profession. Here that doesn't work out.
It worries me that in trying to fulfil my fantasies with the disposable income that my hard-earned profession affords me, I'm financing a downward-spiraling prophecy for people who just need some help. I realize I'm not Gandhi and am not under any delusions that I'm here to save the world, I just always hoped that throughout my life I'd be more a part of a solution than the problems.
I guess in every walk of life there's those that succeed and those that don't. I just wish I'd encountered more of the girls that succeeded VS the other side of the coin.
I am a resident of the north end of vancouver island. Selection of SP's is INCREDIBLY slim compared to that of Victoria or the lower mainland. Here, selection is not so much a matter of choosing what or whom is right for you than the lesser of the evils.
I've been involved in the 'hobby' for about 5 years, but in a limited capacity. The title of my new thread was going to be 'The fantasy VS reality'.
Saw a SP last night; and though I would like to post a review to help others, it seems like a moral conundrum. Found her on CL (ads still pop up there on w4m for a brief period before they're flagged). Sounded like a standard SP ad; '24 y/o, tiny, cute, and blonde'.
Traded a couple e-mails and got a pic - looked very cute.
When she showed up, she was a weak representation of the girl in the photo. Obviously the same person, but must have gone through a lot of shit between the time the photo was taken and the time I saw her. Long story short - had sex, AWESOME bj, and the chat in the meantime was a little awkward. She offered me prescription drugs that her friend was selling, and proffered no air of confidence through the whole experience.
The fantastic thoughts that I always have in my mind when arranging an encounter are of a girl who loves sex and pleasing others, chooses their own schedule, and enjoys a comfortable lifestyle from their talents. I left this experience feeling like I'd validated someone's dead-end lifestyle and worried that I'd exposed myself to infection. The counter-point is that she seemed like a very nice person; eager to please, friendly and awkwardly outgoing. She asked numerous times if she was what I expected. While she wasn't quite, I said yes. I didn't want to have to be the one to tell a 24 year old that she was letting herself go.
So. Here's my problem. My hunting for SP encounters is controlled by my libido, not the rational part of my brain that can assess many parameters and make an informed decision over a period of time. With the limited and untested selection near where I live, listening to the wrong head can lead to some bad decisions. In a perfect world, I'd only see talented, attractive, drug-free SP's that enjoyed their profession. Here that doesn't work out.
It worries me that in trying to fulfil my fantasies with the disposable income that my hard-earned profession affords me, I'm financing a downward-spiraling prophecy for people who just need some help. I realize I'm not Gandhi and am not under any delusions that I'm here to save the world, I just always hoped that throughout my life I'd be more a part of a solution than the problems.
I guess in every walk of life there's those that succeed and those that don't. I just wish I'd encountered more of the girls that succeeded VS the other side of the coin.
shhhh. why reveal the secret? it was more fun to let him bask in the glow of his own dillusional awesomeness haha.
thank you online dictionary. no need to look up words when your here to save the day!
how do you know the sp's you see arent victims? are you with them 24/7 like you are on this forum? i guess i answered my own question.
