John Kerry: Building 7 Was Deliberately Demolished

[sdw]

I'll start with why I'm not an active naval officer, because Iraq is important.

The USA has misused it's military ever since I took the sword in 1967. I was able to avoid being personally misused because the job I wanted to do was necessary. In the 1990s, Congress decided that the work I do was not necessary. They wanted people to do the necessary jobs in their spare time when they weren't busy with the political, feelgood jobs that Congress, in it's genius, comes up with.

So we had people that knew how to install, maintain and use an underwater sensor network being used to covertly acquire information at various venues.

There is a huge difference between tracking armed warships that carry immense destructive power and listening to the conversation between a nation's leader and his mistress.

Tracking warships is the proper job of a military. Listening to people's conversation is the job of intelligence agencies. If you don't trust the people who run or staff your intelligence agency, fire them. Don't misuse other people to acquire information that you have no means to analyze.

Consequently, the USA doesn't trust the information that it gets from any of it's people, sends the information to different groups that don't talk to each other, has congress critters and administration staff that think nothing of disclosing intelligence operatives and has political appointees who "massage" the information so that it's what they want to hear.

Consequently, the Chinese were able to get an old diesel sub within yards of one of our aircraft carriers. We used to attach a magnetic box to other's warships. The message was very clear. We used to remind other people's warships that there were 4 tubes and 12 launchers nearby, and they hadn't seen or heard us and couldn't find us. Anyone trying to get that close on my watch would have been pinged and if he persisted, he would have been bumped.

Consequently, the USA has no intelligence operatives that are native in culture and language. The USA no longer understands what is talk and what is action because they have nobody willing to die so that some staffer can demonstrate how they are in the loop.

Electronic intelligence is not useful for determining what is talk and what is action. We are talking here, would you act on the information? Do we respond to every teenager who is talking? The answer is that we can't and we don't. There is too much electronic intercepts and it's only use is to determine who did something AFTER the thing happened. That's the true purpose of electronic intercepts and video surveillance. It tells us who did something, not who will do something.

Consequently, the USA didn't know that Al Queda was going to attack. AFTER the attack, they could easily review the masses of intelligence and know, for certain, who did it and how they did it.

Consequently, the USA was listening to the lies that various underlings were telling Saddam, the idle boasts that Saddam was making because he hoped that people were telling him the truth and once the USA had massaged the information; they came to a conclusion that they were able to sell to congress and the world.

The few million that real intelligence operatives would have cost was saved. It's cost a trillion dollars, 2 million lives and the future of the USA as a nation.

It was all predicted. It's the reason I left and the reason many others left.

 

[sdw]

From what I have read of the design and construction of the buildings of the World Trade Center, the design philosophy and construction methods are common to the complex.

They wanted to have the maximum possible clear floor on each level and they wanted to be able to remove and reconfigure floors without shutting down the other uses in the buildings.

That's why the removal and reconfiguration of 3 floors in Building 7 is important evidence to demonstrate the why and how of the collapses.

They were using the external facades to take wind loads. The external facades also provided vertical support for the floor slabs, but no lateral support. The floor slabs rested on dampers at the external facades, but were not actually attached. There was no cross bracing and no common internal walls to transfer loads vertically through the building.

They also designed the core to be reconfigurable. They wanted to be able to reconfigure elevator shafts if a tenant wanted a private elevator, they had sky lobbies so that they could use the same space to service multiple elevators. If a tenant wanted to have a private elevator between the 3 floors they leased, the space above and below could still be used for other private or public elevators.

When I began this conversation, I thought that the World Trade Center couldn't be that much different than any other building. Now, I realize that it was quite different.

Normally, the core that contains the stairs and elevators is a cast in place monolithic block. It's a major structural element in most buildings.

In the World Trade Center, the vertical weight loads were not carried by the core, they are carried on columns that are on the perimeter of the core.

The core isn't using concrete to provide the 4 hour burn resistance that the elevator and stairs are required to have. The core was using drywall on steel studs to provide the fire resistance.

That's why I thought up the analogy of cardboard on straws. The designers seem to have relied exclusively on the building's weight to keep things in place and they thought they had removed any possibility of external lateral loads by using the facade to take the wind loads.

I really wonder how much was paid to whom to get this design through the approvals phase. Are there going to be no hurricanes? Is there absolutely no possibility of earthquakes in New York? What happens if someone is blasting nearby? Was nobody going to be allowed to use explosives to demolish a building in the area?

I can think of so many ways the World Trade Center could have been a disaster that don't involve an actual terrorist act.

It's no wonder that the World Trade Center was targeted twice by Al Queda. It was a fat, juicy, easy target with huge vulnerabilities.

I think the whole conspiracy theory that you are buying into is a deflection tactic by the people responsible for the design. I think that they really don't want people looking carefully at the reason Al Queda succeeded so easily because there other buildings that are just as vulnerable. I think they don't want those buildings condemned, required to be demolished and rebuilt to be safe.

Professionally, I've always known that the buildings weren't demolished with explosives. There is enough video that I've always been confident that I would have seen at least some evidence of explosives being used. It's something I would recognize and when the conspiracy theories started, I looked carefully.

I was never really confident that I could explain how fire was the major cause after the aircraft impacts and now I know that I don't have to explain it. Fire wasn't the major cause after the impacts. The design was the major cause.

I think that Al Queda intended to impact low on the corners because it's possible they could have had the towers topple like trees. Remember that the south tower, which is the one the pilot got right, did manage to move laterally enough to crush 3 other buildings. If the pilot that aimed at the north tower had hit his target, they could have crushed even more.

 

[Cali Scott]

Consequently, the USA didn't know that Al Queda was going to attack. AFTER the attack, they could easily review the masses of intelligence and know, for certain, who did it and how they did it.

Israel warned us, Germany warned us. I think that there were a couple of other countries as well. There were agents in the FBI that were told to "Lay off" of investigation of Atta. There were "Put" options on the effected airlines. Starting a few months before 9/11, Cheney and several others stopped flying on Airlines. There has been much proof that we were forewarned and knew that it was within the realm of possibility.

According to a French journalist, Bin Laden had a Kidney treatment in Dubai in the preceeding July and met with a CIA officer.

Consequently, the USA was listening to the lies that various underlings were telling Saddam, the idle boasts that Saddam was making because he hoped that people were telling him the truth and once the USA had massaged the information; they came to a conclusion that they were able to sell to congress and the world.

There was an excellent Bill Moyers show on last week on the selling of the Iraq war and just how far they went to ram it down our throats. This includes Bush and his cabinet repeatedly asserting that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (which of course, it had nothing to do with.). A couple of years ago, I saw a poll that indicated that 70% of the American people still believed this.

There is plentiful evidence that they have planned and wanted the Afghanistan war for years before 9/11.

Subsequent to 9/11, it was learned that a lot of the planes responsible for protecting the eastern seaboard were sent to Alaska for a joint exercise with the Canadians. On 9/11, at the same time as the attacks they were conducting an exercise utilizing that very scenario of planes & buildings. I think that this might have had something to do with the reason they turned off the transponders in the planes. When an ATC personel contacted NORAD, the initial response was "is this an exercise"? I have seen, first hand in my 8 years working with operations of the 7th fleet what they do when there is a bogey.

I cannot imagine why, despite your explaination, intercepts weren't deployed. It's pretty much an automatic thing and with all of the bases around, there shoulda been someone up their arse. An explaination that makes more sense to me than your scenario would be that their radar was full of bogeys generated by the exercise that was being conducted simultaneously. With no transponders, they (pilots or ground control) couldn't pick the jetliners from the false bogeys the exercise was generating on their screens.

Then, as pointed out by SJ, there is the matter of all those little groups of Israeli's that knew what was happening and were there watching and celebrating.

The same thing happened in London in the 7/7 tube attacks. The hired a security analysis company that was running a simulation of THE EXACT SAME SCENARIO AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. Was it a lesson from our playbook or just a friggin' amazing coincidence? I remember them interviewing the head of the security Co. on TV. He was pretty flabberghasted (for an Englishman ;-))!

The few million that real intelligence operatives would have cost was saved. It's cost a trillion dollars, 2 million lives and the future of the USA as a nation.

In the late 90's, the Neo-Cons wrote a paper detailing how, if America was to retain her dominance as the sole superpower, we would have to secure more oil. They paper said that the only way that the people would go along with this is if there were a "New Pearl Harbor". A few years later, Bush is elected, has Rumsfield, Rove and many others from that same group that authored that paper in his cabinet and presto, a New pearl Harbor! It's a little too convenient for me to dismiss as coincidence.

With the Soviet threat gone, we need a new enemy to keep the war machine and industry going. A new boogyman would insure the public's compliance with and dependence on the government in order to further their goals. Did you se how fast they put out the PATRIOT act? I think it's pretty obvious that it was already authored and waiting for the perfect opportunity to be presented.

If there was a real threat, Bush wouldn't have been sitting in the classroom reading goat stories. With his location being public knowlege and 3 (and a few minutes later, 2) planes unaccounted for the SOP of the secret service would have been to whisk Bush into the Limo and to a safe location.

If there continues to be a real threat of terrorism, they would have secured the borders. It's prety obvious how porous our borders are, particularly the southern one. Why is it that pretty much the only anti-terrorism steps that have been conducted only served to make the military complex rich and taken away much of our civil liberties rather than securing our borders? If this were a real and actual threat, I should think that different priorities would be assigned.

The few million that real intelligence operatives would have cost was saved. It's cost a trillion dollars, 2 million lives and the future of the USA as a nation.

Our fate as a nation is already sealed. The foxes are in the henhouse and leading us towards first an North American Union and later, a world government. Even our own president thinks that a "nation is just an idea" and that borders are meaningless. Our education system has for 25 years now been spitting out kids with no capacity to question or think critically. Now, we're like a bunch of sheep looking to the shephard to protect if from the threat to our security. It's okay, shave my wool, you can even eat me but don't let the terrorist wolves get me. Holy f*ck, it just pisses me right the eff off.

Our stature has been reduced, we are now totaly unrespected in every corner of the world, we're entering a HUGE recession and China of all people, pretty much own us. Our time has passed and these dumbf*cks have slept through it and allowed this all to take place.

I know, it's really hard to believe that perhaps this administration allowed 9/11 to happen (or worse, orchestrated it). Most people cannot get their heads around the concept because it means uprooting their belief system and faith in all we were taught the USA and her government were supposed to be about. If you believe that we could never do it I invite you to look at just what these people have done since WWII, around the world. How many wars have they started, how many horrible dictators, how much other sneaky crap that we don't even know about. Believe me, to these people, 3000 lives is NOTHING at all if it advances them towards their goals for disassembeing us as a sovereign nation and into the fold of a world union in which they control everything and profit on everything.

Totally late for work now. Will answer your other post tonight. Have a great day!

 

[SilkyJohnson]

I think that Al Queda intended to impact low on the corners because it's possible they could have had the towers topple like trees. Remember that the south tower, which is the one the pilot got right, did manage to move laterally enough to crush 3 other buildings. If the pilot that aimed at the north tower had hit his target, they could have crushed even more.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/ww3/iran_cfr_warns_of_false_flag_terror_to_ignite_war.htm

8mins to prove AlQaeda doesnt exist, just watch and read the article

 

[sdw]

Cali, the only problem that I have with your post is your statement that there were no fighters up after the first tower strike.

The aircraft that did the second tower strike had at least 3 fighters in place and waiting for a shoot order. The one star that had command at NORAD didn't want to take responsibility for shooting down a civilian airliner. He is still a one star and he's still in place to fail again.

I can guarantee that if it had been my command, the second tower strike wouldn't have happened. I was always aggressive which is why I was where I was at my age.

You must remember that we caught an Israeli mole in 1999. Information from the Israelis wasn't believed or even listened to. The congress critters may not be tired of supporting Israel, but a lot of other people are.

It wasn't a lack of information that let Al Queda succeed. It was a lack of people to analyze the masses of information that was squirreled away.

If an attack happens tomorrow, it'll be the same thing. The investigation will find that all of the initialed agencies had masses of information, didn't share the information and didn't have anyone to analyze the information.

You only have to look at the success of Homeland Security and FEMA to know that large amounts of snivil servants doesn't mean that anything will be done to protect us. Make it difficult to fly, make it difficult to cross the border, but not protect us. The only thing FEMA is good for is ensuring that available resources aren't released to those who need them. Why does it exist? Because a congress critter was able to have it headquartered in his district, another congress critter was able to have his campaign manager appointed to it's head and another congress critter is beholden to the union that represents the snivil servants.

I think you mistyped Afghanistan for Iraq. The US was never that interested in Afghanistan, especially the neocons around Bush. Remember what they had to say when Clinton lobed a few cruise missiles at the camps in Afghanistan?

Iraq, yes, the neocons and Bush had a deep desire to find a reason to go in there. The amazing thing is that they utterly refused to listen to Bush Sr. and Jerry on the reasons not to do it, the force levels required if they were going to do it and the increase in the military necessary to be able to sustain the necessary 10 year commitment.

There was a reason that Bush Sr didn't go to Baghdad and he had 500,000 troops in place. Bush Sr knew he couldn't get congress to support 10 years of 400 - 500 troops stuck in Iraq. Bush Jr is just now beginning to realize that.

 

[Cali Scott]

Cali, the only problem that I have with your post is your statement that there were no fighters up after the first tower strike.

I know that there were a few exercises going that day and one may or may not have been entirely computer based. Some of the dialog that I have read indicated that NORAD personel were unsure whether the ATC's reporting the hijacked planes were part of the exercise or not.

I've a LOT of what was out there about 9/11 but have not done so in about a year and a half and I'm sure more has been added (to sift the chaff from) and my memory is hazy on which of the literally hundreds of links, I have bookmarked contain that info . I just did a quick Google on 'War games air force 9/11' and there's plenty of info.

Several sources, including the mainstream media and former Bush Administration counter-terrorism expert Richard Clarke, have identified at least five simulations of war strategy, including a plane hijacking scenario, taking place on 9/11. - Michael Rupert "Crossing the Rubicon" page 336 [I have this book by the way and I believe that I first learned about the games in this book]

This is a pretty good page: http://www.deanhartwell.com/911Wargames.htm#_edn6

I cannot confirm though whether there were any flying in the area at the time it was first learned that aircraft were hijacked.

The aircraft that did the second tower strike had at least 3 fighters in place and waiting for a shoot order. The one star that had command at NORAD didn't want to take responsibility for shooting down a civilian airliner. He is still a one star and he's still in place to fail again.

They need an order to shoot the jet but not to intercept it. Why would this general's order have prevented the AF (or Navy) from intercepting.

The USS George Washington was anchored right off of Long Island which is a stone's throw and like under a minute away in an F-18!

Nobody had reported seeing any fighters with the first plane (that I have read or remember). Is this from the 9/11 Commision Report? Did you know Henry Kissinger, the international criminal and UNOCAL consultant, LEAD that panel?!

I can guarantee that if it had been my command, the second tower strike wouldn't have happened. I was always aggressive which is why I was where I was at my age.

I hear ya and if I had been on the airliner , nobody would have taken it with a flippin' box knife, either! It still boggles my mind to think that this is what happened (purportedly).

You must remember that we caught an Israeli mole in 1999. Information from the Israelis wasn't believed or even listened to. The congress critters may not be tired of supporting Israel, but a lot of other people are.

I think that the average Joe that has his (or her) eyes open are tired of it. Unfortunately, those aren't the ones that AIPAC or ADL
bothers to lobby. God knows, the ones they are being lobbied don't listen to me.

It wasn't a lack of information that let Al Queda succeed. It was a lack of people to analyze the masses of information that was squirreled away.

I should hope that something like a plot that involved an immanent attack by someone identified as an "enemy" would warrant a higher priority. Especially if the information came from allied foreign intelligence agencies. I only named a couple in that other post. Other warnings came from Germany, France, UK which are NATO members.

I just did a quick poke around and here's a list: http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/main/foreignwarnings.html

If an attack happens tomorrow, it'll be the same thing. The investigation will find that all of the initialed agencies had masses of information, didn't share the information and didn't have anyone to analyze the information.

Well, I am totally expecting one and worse than 9/11at that. I have no doubts that it will be the same parties involved and be utilized as an excuse to put the things Bush has recently put into play (Posse Commitatus - GONE, Martial Law - IN) or perhaps blamed on Iran and used as a prelude to war.

BTW, did you see what those morons tried to pass off to the press as "Iranian made morters" smuggled into Iraq for IED's ? See, that's what I'm talking about man, their fingerprints are so obvious and I see those same fingerprints all over everything they said about 9/11. e.g., luggage with Quoran, car with Arabic flight manual, magic passport (that he took on a one way domestic trip?) that goes out of a hijackers pocket, through a crashing airplane and subsequent fireball and lands 2 blocks away.

You only have to look at the success of Homeland Security and FEMA to know that large amounts of snivil servants doesn't mean that anything will be done to protect us. Make it difficult to fly, make it difficult to cross the border, but not protect us. The only thing FEMA is good for is ensuring that available resources aren't released to those who need them. Why does it exist? Because a congress critter was able to have it headquartered in his district, another congress critter was able to have his campaign manager appointed to it's head and another congress critter is beholden to the union that represents the snivil servants.

LOL, preachin' to the choir brother, preachin' to the choir...

I think you mistyped Afghanistan for Iraq. The US was never that interested in Afghanistan, especially the neocons around Bush. Remember what they had to say when Clinton lobed a few cruise missiles at the camps in Afghanistan?

Nope, not a typo SD dub, Af-phreakin'-ghanistan. They've wanted a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and the gulf of Oman via Afghanistan for a long time. You know Kharzai is from UNOCAL, right? Do a Google on 'Afghan war planned'. It was planned well before the attacks on 9/11. The Taliban were in Texas talking to UNOCAL in 1997 http://killtown.911review.org/oddities.html#1997-Taleban_Texas

Iraq, yes, the neocons and Bush had a deep desire to find a reason to go in there. The amazing thing is that they utterly refused to listen to Bush Sr. and Jerry on the reasons not to do it, the force levels required if they were going to do it and the increase in the military necessary to be able to sustain the necessary 10 year commitment.

There was a reason that Bush Sr didn't go to Baghdad and he had 500,000 troops in place. Bush Sr knew he couldn't get congress to support 10 years of 400 - 500 troops stuck in Iraq. Bush Jr is just now beginning to realize that.

They need Syria and Iran too so that they have a straight line from the Persian gulf to the Mediterranean sea. It could also be tied in with the previously mentioned Afghani pipeline.

I totally saw the civil war thing coming awhen they took out Saddam. It sucks hard for the Iraqies and for our kids that are being put through that experience for the sake of empire.

I think that both Bush Sr. and lil Shrub are cut from the same cloth and this disagreement is charade. I should rephrase, what I mean is that they both serve the same purpose and/or persons that are working towards a specific, global objective (CFR, Bilderbergs, et al) and their disagreement is moot; it still happens.

 

[sdw]

I'm going to edit a bit to shorten things up

They need an order to shoot the jet but not to intercept it. Why would this general's order have prevented the AF (or Navy) from intercepting.

The USS George Washington was anchored right off of Long Island which is a stone's throw and like under a minute away in an F-18!

Nobody had reported seeing any fighters with the first plane (that I have read or remember). Is this from the 9/11 Commision Report? Did you know Henry Kissinger, the international criminal and UNOCAL consultant, LEAD that panel?!

You know that an anchored carrier can't launch anything other than helicopters. Since they wanted all the pretty planes lined on deck, she didn't fly them off to land bases.

NORAD has the command authority over all military aircraft in North American airspace.

I believe the aircraft that intercepted the second airliner were out of Otis.

Here is a time line: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?day_of_9/11=ua175&timeline=complete_911_timeline
It's pretty complete. I'm only going to paste the bit about the shoot down order.
"(9:03 a.m.): Fighters Do Not Have Shootdown Authority

A fighter pilot flying from Otis Air Base toward New York City later notes that it wouldn’t have mattered if he caught up with Flight 175, because only President Bush could order a shootdown, and Bush is at a public event at the time. [Cape Cod Times, 8/21/2002] “Only the president has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down,” according to a 1999 CNN report. [CNN, 10/26/1999] In fact, by 9/11, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld also has the authority to order a shootdown, but he is not responding to the crisis at this time. [New York Observer, 6/17/2004] Furthermore, NORAD Commander Larry Arnold later states that on 9/11, “I have the authority in case of an emergency to declare a target hostile and shoot it down under an emergency condition.” [Filson, 2004, pp. 75]

Entity Tags: George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld

Category Tags: All Day of 9/11 Events, Flight UA 175, Flight AA 11, Donald Rumsfeld"

It was Larry Arnold who refused to issue a shoot order on his own authority.

There is also a site that feels, as I do, that the real reason for all the conspiracy theories is to stop people from examining the failures of government in preventing the attacks and allowing such vulnerable buildings to be built.
http://www.oilempire.us/bogus.html
"Much of the bogus evidence about 9/11 was manufactured to support the official conspiracy theory -- 19 guys directed by a dialysis patient in a cave of Afghanistan managed to outwit the largest military and intelligence system in history, a system so incompetent that it needs a massive budget increase to protect the public from a repeat of the attack.

A different kind of bogus evidence -- which makes wild claims about complicity based on poor quality, doctored images -- has become increasingly prominent as the 9/11 Truth Movement has begun to experience long overdue political successes.

This material claims to be investigative journalism but is not.

the 9/11 truth movement has been having long overdue successes in shifting public consciousness
many more people now understand that 9/11 was not a surprise attack
this is probably why bogus websites and fake films with disproved material have been developed to distract from the best evidence of complicity
these websites promote the idea that blurry photos with illogical and supported claims should be the basis for 9/11 truth outreach efforts, instead of the issues surrounding the failure of the Air Force to intercept the hijacked planes

This site has received threats, harassment, and is the target of a "snitch jacket" campaign (false accusations that activists are actually agents provocateurs) for daring to post this page, but none of the "pod" and "no plane" supporters have offered evidence for their extreme claims. These campaigns appear impervious to facts, they are psychological in nature, not evidentiary.

It's impossible to prove that bogus websites are intentional governmental disinformation, and many of them probably are not. The best covert operations are those that manage to fool people into participating without realizing they are acting on behalf of a hidden controller. If the most aggressive promoters of the disinformation are truly private citizens without any covert connections, making up these claims without receiving a paycheck from a government agency or military contractor, they are missing a profitable opportunity.

Websites, books and other media efforts that promote these claims with good intentions would benefit by contemplating the difference between an editor and a censor. A politically motivated censor defending the official story would prohibit publication of any claims of complicity in 9/11 (or at least those claims that are relatively accurate). The claims debunked on this page could not survive close scrutiny by a careful editor, but an honest editor would still allow the best evidence to be published, even in a peer-reviewed publication. No publication is infinite in size, and no reader has infinite patience to read everything, so any publication by definition must make some editorial decisions to decide what is and is not put into print, broadcast on the air, or posted to a web page. Peer review is not censorship. "

 

[Cali Scott]

I'm going to edit a bit to shorten things up

Me too.

There is also a site that feels, as I do, that the real reason for all the conspiracy theories is to stop people from examining the failures of government in preventing the attacks and allowing such vulnerable buildings to be built.
http://www.oilempire.us/bogus.html
"Much of the bogus evidence about 9/11 was manufactured to support the official conspiracy theory -- 19 guys directed by a dialysis patient in a cave of Afghanistan managed to outwit the largest military and intelligence system in history, a system so incompetent that it needs a massive budget increase to protect the public from a repeat of the attack.

A different kind of bogus evidence -- which makes wild claims about complicity based on poor quality, doctored images -- has become increasingly prominent as the 9/11 Truth Movement has begun to experience long overdue political successes.

This material claims to be investigative journalism but is not.

the 9/11 truth movement has been having long overdue successes in shifting public consciousness
many more people now understand that 9/11 was not a surprise attack
this is probably why bogus websites and fake films with disproved material have been developed to distract from the best evidence of complicity
these websites promote the idea that blurry photos with illogical and supported claims should be the basis for 9/11 truth outreach efforts, instead of the issues surrounding the failure of the Air Force to intercept the hijacked planes

This site has received threats, harassment, and is the target of a "snitch jacket" campaign (false accusations that activists are actually agents provocateurs) for daring to post this page, but none of the "pod" and "no plane" supporters have offered evidence for their extreme claims. These campaigns appear impervious to facts, they are psychological in nature, not evidentiary.

It's impossible to prove that bogus websites are intentional governmental disinformation, and many of them probably are not. The best covert operations are those that manage to fool people into participating without realizing they are acting on behalf of a hidden controller. If the most aggressive promoters of the disinformation are truly private citizens without any covert connections, making up these claims without receiving a paycheck from a government agency or military contractor, they are missing a profitable opportunity.

Websites, books and other media efforts that promote these claims with good intentions would benefit by contemplating the difference between an editor and a censor. A politically motivated censor defending the official story would prohibit publication of any claims of complicity in 9/11 (or at least those claims that are relatively accurate). The claims debunked on this page could not survive close scrutiny by a careful editor, but an honest editor would still allow the best evidence to be published, even in a peer-reviewed publication. No publication is infinite in size, and no reader has infinite patience to read everything, so any publication by definition must make some editorial decisions to decide what is and is not put into print, broadcast on the air, or posted to a web page. Peer review is not censorship. "

Regarding the fighters shooting down the airliners, I think that you have said what I did right before this post.

I checked out the web site. Notice the subtitle is: "traps to distract and discredit the 9/11 truth movement". It's because that is exactly what these versions that they cite ARE. There IS a truth however that we do not have (or at least, a valid suspicion) and hence, that sub-title. If you go back a year or so you'll see that I have always said that I stay away from the Pentagon angle on all of this and it's because I have always felt that it IS a trap. The "Peak Oil" scenario is maybe one too but the Neo-Cons have sure bought into it. I do not feel that discussion of the anomolous fall of he towers and WTC 7 belongs in that camp. Do you?

I don't think that there are many of the sites I visit or cite that support the Jew or the no planes theory but you're right about presenting it for what it is and letting people decide.

LOL, was purusing that site and under rigged elections they had this:
"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy.-- Carroll Quigley, Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in our Time (one of Bill Clinton's teachers)"

That's EXACTLY what I have been saying to my friends but unfortunately, not as eloquently. You see, this is exactly what has happened in America. No matter what, somebody's ther furthering the CFR's idea of a perfect world. This goes whether it's Bill Clinton giving the Chineese many valuable military secrets and technology or GWB's... well, you know WTF HE's done.

Poking around some more,... yeah, I like that site - Reading "why demolition theory is not a good path to truth" on:http://www.oilempire.us/physical-evidence.html. Good stuff! Thanks man, I should have been in bed an hour ago.

 

[sdw]

I think we are actually in agreement except on the possibility that explosives were used to bring the WTC buildings down.

I think that it was a combination of bad building design and a terrorist act that was preventable. I think that the US government is culpable on both issues. It appears that the US government is so concerned with delivering on their promises to the people that have bought them that they have no time to perform the task they are elected for.

http://www.oilempire.us/physical-evidence.html
"I think the main reason people want to believe that explosive charges were used is that it makes the scenario less frightening. Nobody wants to face the fact that any given tall building might have been improperly constructed or designed, and might collapse under relatively little stress. In the case of the World Trade Center, the towers were constructed inside the legal framework of the Port Authority for the specific purpose of avoiding having to comply with the building code. That's a real conspiracy"

It's much more than September 11, 2001. It's the failure of the city and state to evacuate their people when Katrina was going to hit. It's the failure of the federal government to deliver aid when the express purpose of FEMA and all the resources that have been stored is to deliver aid. FEMA would rather have food spoil than to deliver it to those it was intended for.

Yet, the bill the president vetoed yesterday was loaded with pork to satisfy the political donors. Do you think that he would have vetoed it if the timeframe wasn't in it? The USA is over 9 Trillion dollars in debt. They spent 8 billion to build 2 miles of fence last year. They build bridges that don't have a source or a destination and probably can't be driven on anyway. They pass laws to make it easy to export jobs and technology and to import cheap cooks, waitpeople and farm hands.

It has become so expensive to run a political campaign that politicians are unable to do anything but try to give the donors a return on their investment.

I think that before you believe that there was some conspiracy to blow up the WTC, you should examine the conspiracy to distract you from asking why all the warnings weren't heeded or at least examined. Why were the owners of the WTC allowed to depart from normal design or construction? How many other buildings are just as vulnerable? Why was Bin Laden's family flown out of the USA on a special flight before normal air traffic resumed?

We all watched the drumbeat to go to war with Iraq. We all know that this government wants to go to war with Iran. Why is Congress trying to make the necessary troops available? We all know that no branch of the military is making recruitment goals. Even the IQ 80 dummies that they are willing to let in realize that if you join, you are going to Iraq. As long as the US military is mired in Iraq, the government can't go to war with Iran. The troops and resources are not there. If the USA withdraws from Iraq, the troops will be available for a war with Iran.

What congress should be demanding is the restoration of Iraq to the condition it was in 2002. What the UN should be doing is demanding the restoration of Iraq to the condition it was in 2002.

What congress should be demanding is the return of the fleet elements that are stationed in the mid east. That will close down the option of more "shock and awe" in Iran. The reduction in air support will cut the civilian casualties in Iraq and force the troops to hold ground rather than just blowing things up. It'll require more troops on the ground, but each bomb is a troopers annual wage.

The next attack on the USA will probably be after January 19, 2008. It will be huge. I knew that when I moved to Canada in 2005.

 

[Cali Scott]

I think we are actually in agreement except on the possibility that explosives were used to bring the WTC buildings down.

I think that it was a combination of bad building design and a terrorist act that was preventable. I think that the US government is culpable on both issues. It appears that the US government is so concerned with delivering on their promises to the people that have bought them that they have no time to perform the task they are elected for.

Yeah, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page except for that.

Bad building design? I don't know, on the face of it, it seems pretty sound. Did they cut corners on fireproofing and who knows what else? Certainly! Was this the cause of the collapse? I don't know and don't think so.

I don't know how to describe this but I have kind of an "engineering sense" if you will. I am very logical and am equally intuitive. Since I can remember, I have always tried to figure out how everything works from taking apart toys (and later, everything else) and putting them back together to pondering Reality. I sort of "SEE" things working (I don't know how else to describe it) and if I cannot see it, I learn how it works and then I see it. The whole collapse LOOKS wrong if you will. From the speed which it collapsed to the behavior of the 34 story block that started falling off or the way it behaved during collapse just rubs my sense the wrong way.

Yeah, wiring the buildings with explosives is a stretch and improbrobable (but not impossible). On the other side though, there are at least a hundred reports of explosions heard and/or seen. There's also the speed in which it fell and the whole thing of the "hot spots" at ground zero and molten metal all which point to something unnatural occuring.

http://www.oilempire.us/physical-evidence.html
"I think the main reason people want to believe that explosive charges were used is that it makes the scenario less frightening. Nobody wants to face the fact that any given tall building might have been improperly constructed or designed, and might collapse under relatively little stress. In the case of the World Trade Center, the towers were constructed inside the legal framework of the Port Authority for the specific purpose of avoiding having to comply with the building code. That's a real conspiracy"

I disagree SDW, I think the main reason people are questioning is: 1.) because of the impossible speed that they fell. 2.) Silverstein saying that they decided to "Pull" WTC 7 and now, Kerry confirming it. Out of fairness though, I will conceed that Kerry was probably a schill canidate for presidency, is Skull & Bones you have to take what he says while searching for possible ulterior motives. However, he was responding to an audience question at a talk that was totally unrelated to 9/11 sioI don't know where that leave us as far as the credibility of this remark.

[It's much more than September 11, 2001. It's the failure of the city and state to evacuate their people when Katrina was going to hit. It's the failure of the federal government to deliver aid when the express purpose of FEMA and all the resources that have been stored is to deliver aid. FEMA would rather have food spoil than to deliver it to those it was intended for.

Yet, the bill the president vetoed yesterday was loaded with pork to satisfy the political donors. Do you think that he would have vetoed it if the timeframe wasn't in it? The USA is over 9 Trillion dollars in debt. They spent 8 billion to build 2 miles of fence last year. They build bridges that don't have a source or a destination and probably can't be driven on anyway. They pass laws to make it easy to export jobs and technology and to import cheap cooks, waitpeople and farm hands.

It has become so expensive to run a political campaign that politicians are unable to do anything but try to give the donors a return on their investment.

I think that before you believe that there was some conspiracy to blow up the WTC, you should examine the conspiracy to distract you from asking why all the warnings weren't heeded or at least examined. Why were the owners of the WTC allowed to depart from normal design or construction? How many other buildings are just as vulnerable? Why was Bin Laden's family flown out of the USA on a special flight before normal air traffic resumed?

THe conspiracy isn't just about the towers falling; not by a longshot. IT's about the whole event from prior to 9/11 to the government's response and actions after 9/11. I don't think that anyone is being distracted at all by it, at least, I am not.

[We all watched the drumbeat to go to war with Iraq. We all know that this government wants to go to war with Iran. Why is Congress trying to make the necessary troops available? We all know that no branch of the military is making recruitment goals. Even the IQ 80 dummies that they are willing to let in realize that if you join, you are going to Iraq. As long as the US military is mired in Iraq, the government can't go to war with Iran. The troops and resources are not there. If the USA withdraws from Iraq, the troops will be available for a war with Iran.

I don't think the lack of troops will have an effect on prosecuting a war, just a ground war.

[What congress should be demanding is the restoration of Iraq to the condition it was in 2002. What the UN should be doing is demanding the restoration of Iraq to the condition it was in 2002.

What congress should be demanding is the return of the fleet elements that are stationed in the mid east. That will close down the option of more "shock and awe" in Iran. The reduction in air support will cut the civilian casualties in Iraq and force the troops to hold ground rather than just blowing things up. It'll require more troops on the ground, but each bomb is a troopers annual wage.

Restoration is a great idea - you broke it so you fix it!

It's expressly the presidents perogative to project our nation's power through the Navy anywhere he wants and Congress can do nothing about that so they cannot make him move the battle groups.

[The next attack on the USA will probably be after January 19, 2008. It will be huge. I knew that when I moved to Canada in 2005.

What is the significance of this date?

I bought a house outside Vancouver back in 1999. It was for this sort of thing as well as because where I live is overrun with illegal immigrants who's worldview is alien to me and my culture. Also, I fell in love with Canada, her people and incredible beauty. I find it much more civilized that America and am comfortable being around folks who were raised with and still retain those values I was programmed with growing up here in the 60's. I just plain feel more at home with Canadians than here with my own people. You shouldn't take any of that paragraph lightly, I am about as patriotic as one could be. I am miles more patriotic than most of the sheeple in my country becaue I study and KNOW what this country was supposed to be about. I had to of seen the situation as desparate in order for me to give up on the USA. As much as I love Canada and my house there, living up there will be quite bittersweet.

Don't develop a false sense of security though SDW, Canada is only immune to terrorist attacks and starting wars. As a participant of the commonwealth she can and does go to war at the behest of England. Also, they have their own version of the CFR and whatever hand is runing things behind the scenes in our government operates the Canadian government as well. IOW, they will not escape any NWO type goals, only delay the effects of fascism on her own people.

Heh, heh, OMG had a couple of minutes to kill before leaving the house and saw this on the site you turned me on to:
Moving to Canada? That's not far enough to escape the empire.
http://www.oilempire.us/canada.html
How serendipitous!

 

[sdw]

The purpose of this post is to provide requested links to some people that have been following the conversation and found that we were using too much shorthand or were assuming a level of knowledge without thinking about the other readers.

WTC Tower NIST 2006 report
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

The Table of Contents starts at page 17 of the pdf

Executive Summery starts at page 37
The executive summery is essentially a whitewash and does not deal with a number of issues that are raised in the body of the report. Specifically, the executive summery and the findings of the report absolve the building design as an issue despite the body of the report highlighting several areas where the building design was the reason that the building behaved as it did.

Map of WTC complex at page 53
The map illustrates the size of the ejecta field. Buildings 3 – 6 were crushed by components of the Towers 1 and 2 along with the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, World Financial Center buildings 90 West St and 130 Cedar St., Deutsche Bank Building and Verizon building.

Pages 54 to 67 discuss the basic design. Of particular interest is the discussion starting at page 56 on the decreasing size of steel on the higher floors. From page 62 there is a discussion on the use of gypsum panels to provide the fire protection in the core. They did this because they wanted to recover “wasted” space in the core. The discussion of the Elevator layout beginning on page starting on page 63 and the discussion of the Stairwell layout starting on page 65.

The only elevator shafts that were continuous for the entire vertical height of the building were 2 passenger elevators to the restaurant and 1 freight elevator to the restaurant. There was no stairwell that was continuous for the entire vertical height of the building.

The monolithic cast concrete central core that provides the majority of the strength for most buildings wasn’t present in the WTC buildings.

Starting on page 69 is the account of what happened to the North Tower. As I was, before I started looking at the design, the account is biased towards fire being the major cause of the collapse.

The conspiracy theorists have two things right, fire by itself is not the major cause and buildings don’t collapse in 12 seconds. I had an underwater structure take 28 minutes to collapse. I believe the time of collapse must be measured from the time of the impact of the aircraft. As the building transfers weight to surviving components and those components in their turn fail, the building moves inevitably to the final 12 seconds when the building no longer has any surviving integrity. I believe the total time is on the order of 102 minutes for the North Tower.

One issue that the report covers is the anomalous behavior of the upper stories. On page 79 there is a reference to the effect of the Hat Truss on the behavior of the building.

Starting on page 87 is the account of what happened to the South Tower. This building collapsed much more quickly because the aircraft struck on the corner and destroyed the interior corner column of the core. The total time is on the order of 56 minutes.

Starting on page 101 is the discussion of fire and building codes and who the WTC got around them. Of particular interest is 5.3.5 starting on page 107. The WTC towers should have had 6 separate stairwells. They had 3 that did not extend continuously the entire vertical height of the building.

Starting on page 114 is a discussion of “Building Innovations” and their effect on what happened. While the information is included in the report, it makes no appearance in the executive summery or the findings of the report.

These “Innovations” are why the buildings aren’t still standing like the Empire State Building after it was struck by a B25 bomber. Of particular interest is 5.4.3 on page 114 and 5.4.4 on page 115. They varied the thickness and strength of the steel of the columns and they had no lateral bracing. The weaker steel is why the aircraft were able to penetrate deep into the building and damage or destroy so many columns. 5.4.6 on page 116 shows why the floor trusses weren’t capable of transferring lateral loads. 5.4.7 on page 116 is a discussion of the long floor spans. The building was designed without interior walls in order to facilitate “flexibility” and increase the rentable floor area. This resulted in floor spans that are extreme. 5.4.8 on page 116 discusses the use of steel stud and gypsum panels to wall the elevator shafts and stairwells.

Additional Links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

 

[sdw]

Cali,

I’ll boast for a second. I’m pretty Green and also a supporter of preserving and enhancing the Social Safety Net, so my house in Langley is built with that in mind.

The main disaster that can befall us in the Lower Mainland is an Earthquake. Consequently, my house is not oversized, but is self sufficient for it’s energy needs.

I produce 2500 watts of Solar Power on a clear day and I also produce 3500 watts of Wind Power when the wind is over 6 kph.

That meant that I sold power through all of this winter and didn’t have to turn the generator on at all.

While I’m not a Mormon, I do practice the principle of having a year’s supply of food for each occupant of my home.

I chose the Lower Mainland because during the late 60s and early 70s I had actually specialized in the destruction of armored vehicles, radar systems and anti aircraft systems. It was a crash in late 1972 that caused me to become a member of the silent service after they put me back together.

I had done work as a liaison / training officer with the Canadian, British and German forces in Shilo Manitoba, Wainwright Alberta and Suffield. I seriously considered locating myself near Calgary, but the unreasonable property prices and total lack of services made me select the Fraser Valley.

While I like big cities for the cultural activities, I wouldn’t live in Ottawa, Toronto or Montreal. Vancouver is close enough from where I am. It is quite likely that things will get bad everywhere when the USA disintegrates. We don’t grow our own food. We import it on Aircraft, Ships and Trains. When 911 happened, there were significant interruptions of the food supply. Especially on the East Coast. Not that long ago, the entire East Coast power grid collapsed due to a tree hitting a power line. The long neglect of the power grid lead to that small accident escalating into a total shutdown. There was no comprehensive repair of the grid. It will go down again. And now, America’s enemies know how vulnerable the grid is. The hurricanes in the Gulf shut down most of America’s refining capability in 2005. Again, there were interruptions of the food supply. No permits have been issued to build refining capability in less vulnerable areas of America. And now America’s enemies know how vulnerable our fuel delivery system is.

Muslims have a whole batch of “significant” dates that are based on prophesies or when “crusaders’” attacked them.

Did you know that we aren’t allowed to game attacks on various bits of America’s infrastructure? They are terrified that the press will report on an exercise and give people ideas. Meanwhile, nobody can ensure that they have a working response to disaster.

 

[Cali Scott]

Cali,

I’ll boast for a second. I’m pretty Green and also a supporter of preserving and enhancing the Social Safety Net, so my house in Langley is built with that in mind.

Preserving and enhancing the social safety net?

The main disaster that can befall us in the Lower Mainland is an Earthquake. Consequently, my house is not oversized, but is self sufficient for it’s energy needs.

I produce 2500 watts of Solar Power on a clear day and I also produce 3500 watts of Wind Power when the wind is over 6 kph.

Wicked dude! I need a setup like that when I come up. I'll still need to have natural gas though which has ridden on the coat tails of gasoline/oil for increases.

Earthquake / Tsunami. Maybe not so much you in Langley but I sort of think of it. I am in Belcarra (near Anmore, north of port Moody up Ioco road) and right across from the water. I hope that the islands and inlets make for isolation from large wave action.

Mine's not a small house by any stretch of the imagination (43-4500 sf) but I cannot do the small house thing. I simply have too much furniture, books, 15 keyboards ,Drums, recording equipment, hobbies and stuff and like to stretch out without clutter . I'd LOVE a bitchin' little condo downtown or on False creeek but sadly, I cannnot fit!

That meant that I sold power through all of this winter and didn’t have to turn the generator on at all.

While I’m not a Mormon, I do practice the principle of having a year’s supply of food for each occupant of my home.

The days are long gone of people ridiculing food storage. I've been doing it since about 1997.

I chose the Lower Mainland because during the late 60s and early 70s I had actually specialized in the destruction of armored vehicles, radar systems and anti aircraft systems. It was a crash in late 1972 that caused me to become a member of the silent service after they put me back together.

I had done work as a liaison / training officer with the Canadian, British and German forces in Shilo Manitoba, Wainwright Alberta and Suffield. I seriously considered locating myself near Calgary, but the unreasonable property prices and total lack of services made me select the Fraser Valley.

While I like big cities for the cultural activities, I wouldn’t live in Ottawa, Toronto or Montreal. Vancouver is close enough from where I am. It is quite likely that things will get bad everywhere when the USA disintegrates. We don’t grow our own food. We import it on Aircraft, Ships and Trains. When 911 happened, there were significant interruptions of the food supply. Especially on the East Coast. Not that long ago, the entire East Coast power grid collapsed due to a tree hitting a power line. The long neglect of the power grid lead to that small accident escalating into a total shutdown. There was no comprehensive repair of the grid. It will go down again. And now, America’s enemies know how vulnerable the grid is. The hurricanes in the Gulf shut down most of America’s refining capability in 2005. Again, there were interruptions of the food supply. No permits have been issued to build refining capability in less vulnerable areas of America. And now America’s enemies know how vulnerable our fuel delivery system is.

I didn't know that 9/11 impacted the food situation up there. I was there several times after and didn't notice at all. Of course, I didn't do a heck of a lot of grocery shopping though. You're in farmland there aren't you? Dont get out that way too much but I thought Langley and Abbotsford were farmland?
It's would be a good idea to get together with neighbors and have a survival garden as well.

Muslims have a whole batch of “significant” dates that are based on prophesies or when “crusaders’” attacked them.

Numerology is important to those who are running things from behind the scenes and their puppets as well. Probably more so than the Muslims! Just like the Nazi's, these folks are into ritual and the occult. There is significance to this date for them too.

In regards to refining capacity and Katrina. I think that it was a sham. The gulf region doesn't contribute much at all to the overall gasoline situation at least. I am kind of sheltered here in California. ALL of our gasoline comes from oil from Canada and Alaska, NONE of it from the gulf or the middle east yet we pay the highest prices for gasoline in the nation here (about $3.60 a gallon presently & national avg. is like $2.75). Any excuse to raise the prices though and we get nailed here.

Did you know that we aren’t allowed to game attacks on various bits of America’s infrastructure? They are terrified that the press will report on an exercise and give people ideas. Meanwhile, nobody can ensure that they have a working response to disaster.

Yeah, I have to cross my fingers that there is not an attack in Los Angeles in the next few years until I can get out. Obviously, I would not be able to count on the gov't at all (I've known this way before Katrina). I'm sure that it would be like the riots of '92 only much, much worse. They're all set up to declare martial law now upon a red alert so I'd probably have to sneak around just to rescue my kid from school. Yep, I can see myself getting shot or killed because I really have no patience for bullcrap like that, especially when it comes to my family, I tend to be a bit reactionary.

Just doing my morning news run here and came across this and thought it was interesting:
Potential Padilla jurors unsure of 9/11 attacks blame
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/369996,padilla050407.article At least, some of the populous seems to be paying attention. Maybe there IS hope.

 

[Cali Scott]

BTW SDW, you never told me what the significance of the January 19, 2008 date is.

 

[sdw]

cali,
The date is the 800th or 850th anniversary of a battle that Saladin won. After that the Third Crusade under Richard of England was funded by a special Saladin Tax on the countries that recognized the Pope. I had it explained to me by a mullah when I was in Afghanistan, but I didn't follow all the logic.

There are certain things that I think a modern society should provide. A public education from K to 12, public health care for non discretionary medical problems, income assistance for those who are temporarily in need, public pensions for the handicapped and retired and police and court services.

Public Education:
It should be self evident, but it seems that it isn't. More and more we see the bureaucrats that run the education system make choices that force people to use privately funded schools.
Public Schools are for the teaching of Math, Reading and Writing English, Simple Science, History, Promotion of Health and Civics. Public schools have to build the platform that people can use throughout their life to conduct their business, understand issues, exercise their vote, be gainfully employed and remain healthy.
Public Schools are not places for gangs to hold their meetings, pedophiles to happily hunt, political parties to recruit or the daycare center for lazy parents.

Public Health:
There are diseases and conditions that happen to people that a public health system should treat. These include shots to prevent epidemics, treatment of trauma, treatment of the mentally incapacitated and health education.

There are things that people should pay for through their insurance or by themselves. These include any elective procedure, birthcontrol by abortion and the results of a lifestyle that is abusive to a person's body. To be clear, I don't owe you a liver because you drink, a lung because you smoke or a new nose because you snort.

Public Income Assistance:
It is not desirable for a society to encourage people to not be productive. People who aren't doing something productive have too much time to find evil.

However, it is also not desirable to impose human misery on our fellow citizens. We must allow the abused child to escape their abuser, we must allow abused women to find safety for themselves and their children, we must allow pensions for those who can no longer work but were never well enough employed to fund their own pension, we must allow the widowed a pension, we must allow the disabled a pension.

Public Law:
The reason our civilization works is that we have collectively agreed to live under the rule of law and have given our right of redress and revenge to the state. The state must do it's job. If the state doesn't do it's job, our civilization fails.

I have a propane tank. I would have used natural gas, but that system won't be working after an earthquake and they won't let you compress and store natural gas.

I think you should look at the Tsunami that went up the Albernie Canal http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami1964Canada.html

Actually most of the farmland in Langley has been alienated from farming purposes. My first Langley house was in an area that is now all townhouses. I was getting constant complaints about the manure from my horses and was also offered a great deal for that land. My current property is large acreage surrounded by other members of the horsey set. I also grow Christmas Trees and Landscaping Trees. Since I have the other business, I don't have time to do much real farming.

I know all about how a house gets small. My current house is Insulated Concrete Forms in construction. I use the outbuildings for storage and accommodating my hobbies. I like to do woodworking and things with metal and they are better in an outbuilding anyway.

If a person lives exclusively on TV dinners and canned food, they probably didn't notice. ;-Q Seriously, there were severe shortages of fresh foods to the point where restaurants shut down or limited their menus.

The problems we had after Katrina were in no way a sham. Anybody that could do the work was there trenching in new pipe, recovering the platforms and getting them back into operation and repairing the refineries. They actually paid for my Alaska based workboats to be transported down and back.

The problem with the USA in general is that nobody wants a smelly, dangerous refinery anywhere nearby. Texas and Mississippi are the states that are the easiest to build and maintain a refinery in.

The reason that California pays so much for fuel is the cost of transportation. California hasn't allowed new refineries, discourages maintenance and upgrade of existing refineries and is allowing no new pipelines. For a state that uses as much fuel as the entire eastern seaboard, they sure make it hard to supply their needs. Trucking the fuel that the existing pipeline can't carry is expensive.

 

[Cali Scott]

cali,
The date is the 800th or 850th anniversary of a battle that Saladin won. After that the Third Crusade under Richard of England was funded by a special Saladin Tax on the countries that recognized the Pope. I had it explained to me by a mullah when I was in Afghanistan, but I didn't follow all the logic.

Thanks

...here are certain things that I think a modern society should provide...
Public Education:
Public Health:
Public Income Assistance:
Public Law:

I agree will all except maybe the Public Income Assitance which I'm up in the air about. My only perspective is from a stateside view and you know what the Welfare situation is (was) like here.

I understand what the safety net is, my question had more to do with what living green has to do with supporting it.

I have a propane tank. I would have used natural gas, but that system won't be working after an earthquake and they won't let you compress and store natural gas.

My house up there was on Propane before Belcarra got natural gas. Someone stole my tank a few years ago (it was bloody HUGE, I don't know how they pulled it off.).

I think you should look at the Tsunami that went up the Albernie Canal http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami1964Canada.html

That's the west coast of the island which is known for getting rogue waves anyway. Belcarra is kinda off of the Indian Arm and is itself in a bay (Bedwell Bay) so there's Vancouver Island, all of the intervening islands, English bay and then Indian Arm and finally my bay for it to get through. I feel pretty safe until the sea level rises with the global meltdown.

Actually most of the farmland in Langley has been alienated from farming purposes. My first Langley house was in an area that is now all townhouses. I was getting constant complaints about the manure from my horses and was also offered a great deal for that land. My current property is large acreage surrounded by other members of the horsey set. I also grow Christmas Trees and Landscaping Trees. Since I have the other business, I don't have time to do much real farming.

I know all about how a house gets small. My current house is Insulated Concrete Forms in construction. I use the outbuildings for storage and accommodating my hobbies. I like to do woodworking and things with metal and they are better in an outbuilding anyway.

If a person lives exclusively on TV dinners and canned food, they probably didn't notice. ;-Q Seriously, there were severe shortages of fresh foods to the point where restaurants shut down or limited their menus.

Hey, how did you know about my diet?! When I vacation though, I eat at the best restaraunts up there and there is so much good food! I have gotten wilty salads and mentioned it causually to the server and they're like, "what's wrong with it" which I find amusing. A couple of greenhouses spitting out hydroponic lettuce would be a good investment up there (and a switch from the usual purpose of hydro systems in Vancouver).

Yeah people are funny. I remember somewhere here in SoCal there was a new housing development next to a large dairy and all of the new residents were complaining about the odor. HELLO! It's a DAIRY, WTF did you expect?! God, I hate Americans sometimes!

I was speaking more of a victory garden type of setup jsut to keep you in fresh tasty veggies and provide a buffer in case of the collapse of America.

The problems we had after Katrina were in no way a sham. Anybody that could do the work was there trenching in new pipe, recovering the platforms and getting them back into operation and repairing the refineries. They actually paid for my Alaska based workboats to be transported down and back.

The problem with the USA in general is that nobody wants a smelly, dangerous refinery anywhere nearby. Texas and Mississippi are the states that are the easiest to build and maintain a refinery in.

The reason that California pays so much for fuel is the cost of transportation. California hasn't allowed new refineries, discourages maintenance and upgrade of existing refineries and is allowing no new pipelines. For a state that uses as much fuel as the entire eastern seaboard, they sure make it hard to supply their needs. Trucking the fuel that the existing pipeline can't carry is expensive.

Yeah and it's supply and demand. I don't even know how many cars there are here. I'd guess 30 million or so at a minimum.

THe sham part of Katrina was saying that the gasoline prices here in Cali had to rise becaue of damage to production capacity in the Gulf. I understand that many of the rigs weren't at full production or idle at the time so they weren't contributing that much anyway. As I pointed out, we don't get any petroleum products from the gulf anyway. Despite all of that "damage" they managed another record breaking profit taking quarter.

 

[sdw]

cali,

Bastards will steal anything. They watch and if there aren't enough people around or the fences are poor, your stuff is gone. I have had to spend a lot of money on fences and I have a number of full-time staff that live on the place. There are even people that don't realize that horses are one of the dumbest beasts known to man and can be allowed to run free.

I'm sitting watching TV and waiting for Curling to win the Derby. Should be a good race.

When BC gets the big quake, Vancouver Island is going to move a bit closer to the mainland. Thats going to move a lot of water up the sound.

There was a gorgeous house at Belcarra that even had it's own dock. It took a lot of thinking for me to not buy it.